STELLAR MAZE DISCUSSION FORUM

Can any type have a relationship with another?

Originally this was going to be my answer for another thread here but I figured it would be too offtopic.
So, I would agree with the notion that every type can get along with every other type atleast in theory.
Why is that? Well, here we go:

I don’t think it’s possible to have a big strength in one field while not having a weakness in another. I’m not talking about abilities (things you can learn, like history or cooking) but rather personality. And I think MBTI/Jungian functions are quite a good system for demonstrating that: For example a person which has a drive to be creative and think of novel concepts on how to solve problems, probably does not do well with routine work because it bores them to death (it drains their energy). People can learn to cope with their unhealthy behaviours, life means changing, so people usually do as well but of course that depends on if they get thrown into situations where they actually have to mature and develop.

The question is just: What exactly is unhealthy? I would say it’s not unhealthy to have a weakness, however your way of dealing with it could be unhealthy. I’ve seen different manifestations of this, which often come as patterns. I can give two examples of this, right from the top of my head:
Being in denial/indulging in phantasy: If you think you are really competent at something when you are clearly not and can not see reality for what it is, this is especially bad if you are in a position with power, as it will have consequenes for the people around you.
Or running away from it, self-neglect: If you care a lot about the feelings and opinions of other people to the point where you have trouble dealing with their negative responses, so you don’t say no to other people and don’t create healthy boundaries because you would need to step out of your comfort zone.

Of course that doesn’t mean that running away is not a perfect strategy sometimes, however you should be aware that you are running away from it and make sure that this will not have bad consequenes for you or those dear to you. Otherwise you might regret it or end up complaining everyday and risk becoming bitter. I had a colleague once who was criticizing a lot of things that happened in his environment and he often had a very good reason to do so. But the thing is, he often did not dare to change a thing, as he was often seeing possible bad consequences everywhere and as a result he was often pretty much afraid of future possibilities. If he instead used those thoughts (his awareness of problems) to form solutions and plan around future problems, he would have had no trouble implementing plans.

So what are healthy alternatives? Well the first thing you obviously have to do is identifying your weakness and accepting them, otherwise you can not find ways to deal with them better. The most straightfoward method is just to step out of your comfort zone and try to build strength in your area of weakness. However it’s often not the most efficient method available and it might be not possible because it could require a lot of time and effort. Another way could be finding ways around it, if you are bad at cleaning your house then maybe you can hire a cleaning lady, if you have trouble with routine work, find a job where you only have to do minimums of it. This is pretty close to another way of dealing with it, which is ask someone you trust for help or advice, they need to be better at it than you though.

So you probably ask yourself now: “Okay Gardebiter, what the fuck are you getting at with all this bullshit about weaknesses, strengths, working on yourself, bla bla bla?!”
Well, here is the thing: I don’t think you have to integrate every single function in a sense that you need to use it yourself actively and make it strong as hell, I mean that ruins the whole point, doesn’t it? Maybe it’s just not your thing, you have plently of other strengths to draw from, just make sure you have minimums of everything that you need in order function healthily and that you are aware of what you can do, what you can’t do, what you want and do not want. And I think if you do that, you can get along with a lot of types, considering that they had a similar development.
Then go into the world, admit your weakness and ask other people for help, don’t think you’re weak because you’re admitting weakness, not being able to admit weakness is a weakness in itself. Also, don’t fall into the trap to victimize yourself because often times there are things you can do, even if it’s just asking for help. Cooperation is often more viable than competition, especially when people have completly different stengths (it makes little sense to have a dual between a chess pro and a cooking pro for example).

So yeah, that’s why I think any type can have a working relationship of any kind with any other type, you do not have to integrate all functions but you need to be conscious of your inner workings, your desires, your values and your goals and then communicate that honestly. I think self-knowledge, acceptance, communication and shared values are the key to getting along with most people (of course only when it is reciprocal).

What are your thoughts about this?

I agree. It’s about being a mature, functioning human being interacting with the world’s many surroundings.
I think some people may choose to separate themselves from some types of people because they know they operate a certain way or they themselves operate a certain way that does not co-mingle so well.
I don’t believe you should preemptively count yourself out of a relationship because of a certain type. It just provides reason to certain behaviors and levels of understanding. I think everyone is cool in their own right. :grin::+1:

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Oh yeah, some people do tend to avoid specific types of other people. I think that’s okay though, you do not have to get along with everyone and honestly I don’t think that’s even realistically possible because it’s likely there will be people who have values completly contrary to your own. Some people just trigger each other, I mean a lot of people have toxic sides in them somewhere that might get unleashed when they are with a certain type of people. However, I agree that this should be no reason to preemptively cut ties with people, you can learn something from every encounter with another person. :smiley:

Some thoughts but nothing profound :laughing:

  1. Exactly, reciprocity. Not always on the table. And some just aren’t that bothered, would rather have you out of the picture than have to try and self-reflect and adjust behaviours to get along.

  2. Type-casting
    It’s odd to me that so many people refer to others by type with such certainty and then would use that as a criteria for determining relationships. Like, I hate the idea of companies hiring based on type test, or a dating someone because of their type (how would you even know unless you met them or it was on their profile or something?)

Especially given how inconsistent the system is. That’s like dating someone on the basis of their eye colour, job or sun sign - reductive and arbitrary.

I mean there is a weighing up and judging when we meet people that will guide us to wanting more or less to do with that person on a personal level, and the patterns you can glean from a type and how well you’re likely to get on etc but I guess I I hate the idea of overgeneralisation, discrimination and people who are quick to judge and dismiss based on ‘facts’ rather than personal interaction. Or even on first impressions. I try not to do this with others and it bothers me that some people presume to know me or who I am and stick a type label on me and have that determine my value (Or lack thereof) and if I’m worth their time or not.

Even if you’re Top Dog in the mbti-Astro field :wink: would that be enough to let influence your human interactions?

Maybe if I were better at it I would do just that, lol. Also it seems less of a thing in the UK than in the states, so maybe it is used over there with more accuracy than I imagine it to be?

So…

…yeah :+1:

SHITTY LONG-ASS POSTS (I mean mine)

But is it truly arbitrary like someone’s eye colour or birth date? MBTI is a useful system to understand and categorise personality. Personality is a huge influence on how one relates to others. Other factors can influence relationships as well, such as culture, class background, interests & hobbies, etc. But my theory is that personality, whilst not being the sole determinant, is perhaps the most influential factor of all. Now just how much more influential above all else is something that is up to debate. I don’t have an answer for that.

As for inconsistency, that is certainly something that should be worked on. Most people’s take on typology is not very well thought out. The definitions are fuzzy, vague, and not very consistent between person to person. While I refuse to take anything as Gospel, I like this website because Blake has worked hard on trying to make clear the essence of each function and each MBTI type out there. Each system has its own errors, but if one tries to apply the principles of the system correctly and consistently, one should be able to discriminate between one type and another. The problem occurs when it is not executed consistently and one starts swapping from one system to another on his/her own basis. No.

Basically, I think of all this exactly like how one should execute experimental science. Every experimental method has its own inherent flaws. That’s why we should define the assumptions, and stick to one methodology and apply it consistently. That way, the only error that we should have remaining is a systematic error, which is at least way better than having random errors - then we’re fucked.

Nah. I don’t think it’s really any better over there.

There’s also the whole problem of people relying on “tests” to define their type, like what companies do, as you’ve mentioned. While such “tests” seem to be more reliable on face-value, the methodology simply does not suit the purpose. They are poorly designed “tests” due to multiple reasons - like poorly designed questions, ill-defined terminology, and subjects interpreting each question or term variably with no authoritative figure to ask for clarification. Therefore, I think MBTI tests are complete bollocks.

The best method to type someone is probably by interpersonal interaction or “holistic” observation of the subject. Celebrities are also great case studies, because it is their job to project personalities and exaggerate certain facets of each character. Therefore, they are some of the clearest examples out there with regards to what is one type and what is another. However, for this method to work, one’s definitions of each type and function must be on-the-ball, and again, applied consistently.

Now do companies and most average people actually know what they’re doing when typing others? Probably not. No wonder MBTI encounters such skepticism.

This is a common misunderstanding I’ve found in the forum for quite some time. This is not what typology is about. It’s not about restricting yourself to some cookie-cutter box or preemptively cutting ties with others solely based on type. Typology is a guideline to help you grow and relate to others. It’s a theory with its own assumptions in an ideal world discounting multitudes of variables. But what is wrong with that? Shit like that is everywhere in hard sciences, too. Such theories are very useful, if they are well constructed. However, most theories have room for tweaking or improvement. That’s why it’s important to see how well these theories are reflected in reality, apply them tastefully to our daily lives, and to always retain a healthy dose of skepticism.

Personally, I think typology is a very, very useful tool and guideline for understanding why we consistently see a specific relationship dynamic between oneself and another type. They can also be very good predictive tools to find which types might give you the best success rate for whatever type of relationship one is searching for. However, they should not be taken from a fatalistic point of view - that everything will go exactly as what is predicted by typology. That is not the point of typology, and that was never Blake’s point either. He speaks all from a theoretical point of view. When he mentions ENFJ relates to ESTP (for example) and describes the dynamic, he’s talking about the stereotypical ENFJ and the stereotypical ESTP in an ideal world. Not in actuality.

This was always clear to me from the very beginning, but based on some of things people have written on the forum a while ago, I guess it wasn’t all so clear to others.

Anyways. I totally agree with almost everything people wrote in this thread. Never should we use type to judge someone or immediately discount a potential friendship/collaboration/relationship. Never should we use MBTI as an excuse not to behave like decent human beings. And yes, I totally agree with Gardebiter. We can learn something from everyone. It’s more difficult to relate to some types than another, but we should all strive to be at least decent and tolerant to one another.

Basically, we should all be open to experience, because at the end of the day, MBTI is a fucking theory in a closed, ideal system. But then there is reality.

And finally, a forum like this is great. What’s great about a forum like this is that, first of all, we are making permanent evidence of how types are manifested in real individuals and how they relate to one another (i.e how each user presents him/herself and how they relate to other users on the forum). Also, people are able to share their ideas or experiences of how typology can be used or manifested in their own personal situations. Finally, a place like this is great for making disputes against certain claims, ideas, or any given individual’s type. It’s not for “typecasting” and just stopping there. It’s for learning and improving on typology itself as well as its application.

So in conclusion. Everyone in this thread seems in agreement. We are just expressing it in different ways. In my case, I just wanted to frame the same thoughts people have here with a more positive emphasis on MBTI. That’s it. Now back to work for me. (Slave-whiplash!)

EDIT: I just realized how off-topic I was going at so many points. Uhh. But I made my point somewhere in there. :smiley:

The way I see it is that a certain personality is a certain pattern of behavior. Certain patterns of behavior are manifested by people because of the ways they see themselves, their ideas of themselves cultivated by many many years of hang-ups and choices. Basically, personality is a pattern that feels right or doesn’t feel right to the person manifesting it. It’s completely idea based and it stems from the reliance on one’s past choices and decisions.

I’m of the opinion that people are inherently self-molding balls of clay. With each passing moment the slate is clean, so to speak, and there is the option to completely re-shape yourself. The problem is that people believe they must stick to the pattern of behavior that they’ve stuck to in their lives so far. Why? Because it’s comfortable, and people love comfort and familiarity. But this in fact does not make this pattern of idea based behavior true reality. True reality is completely and totally spontaneous. Human beings are part of that true reality, and we’re as spontaneous as the rest of it. The problem is we get in our own way and try define the indefinable. We allow ourselves to fall into boxes of our own creation in a world of pure uncontainable spontaneity.

Each passing moment is an opportunity to completely revamp who you think you are, because each of us can literally become anything and anyone we want to become.

But as far as typology goes, yes it’s fun to type those certain patterns :grin:

I like your viewpoints @T_Alex_B. I think this is one of those things that’ll be up to debate for eternity. Personally, I think that people are malleable creatures with a very loose, flexible framework that could be predetermined or semi-pre-determined, and that framework is what we can perhaps call “personality.” To me, it doesn’t make sense to think that we are ultimately free to do and be whatever we want. First of all, we are at least partly dictated by our biology. Please do not take this as, “if you have X gene, you will have Y trait” - that is so fucked up and wrong on all levels. But, yes, our behaviour is partly dictated by biology, and the code for our makeup is in our DNA. Now exactly how that DNA is manifested as behaviour, and even physical traits, is extremely complex and poorly understood; environmental influence is a huge interplayer as well. Nevertheless, we are inherited with a potential that can be expressed in so many different ways, and that potential is defined and limited.

Also, I think a better way to look at it, is not whether we are “able” to choose to be and do whatever we want, but rather, how easy it is for us to be and do X. That could be somewhat pre-determined by numerous factors, and perhaps even, (gasp!), personality. Of course, effort and education are important factors, too, but just how much of that is needed could be affected by what you already have. The choice is up to the individual as to how much he/she wants to make the effort.

Anyways, someone should test all this shit, but I ain’t gonna do it. :smiley:

Also, I’m going off-task again. Time to turn on the site blocker. :stuck_out_tongue:

Lol you’re definitely right. It has to do with whether free will really exists or not. This comes down, again, to what one’s beliefs and ideas might be.

Personally, I think it does exist, and it’s really all we have. I think the idea of totally free will scares a lot of people, because that means we’re the sole architects of our lives with nobody or nothing keeping watch and standing guard. That’s why religion exists–to create some “objective” rulebook about what should be done about this little thing called life. But ultimate responsibility–total free will–can seem very daunting for some. I think the complete opposite: it alleviates any kind of anxiety one could have about life and fashions the most creative environment one can think of.

And I remember now my disappointment with studying philosophy. I enjoyed reading philosophical ideas but hated writing about them. I enjoy listening to others discuss certain topics but never had much to say on anything. Or at least a strong enough desire to argue, discuss, dissect, present or re-iterate things that had already been said much better by someone else.

Also why I tend to skirt around debates, discussions. I basically see both sides and don’t much get much out of rehashing old ground. and am pretty rubbish / get bored laying out an argument.

But I do have a habit of playing devils advocate a bit if I feel someone’s coming at something super strong and I do get goaded by the thought of ignoramuses making broad generalisations - not that I think anyone has done that here but just the idea of it irritates me.

Maybe my Libra Moon has something to do with this.

@schlopadoo yeah, I’m in agreement with everything you say even if I came across as a hater or something. I really enjoy Blake’s MBTI & astrology vibe & words and pining for another article! and I enjoy reading all you folks’ input. Think I’m better not saying much though. Might delete my posts rather than leave half baked prattle!

Muahahaha! Site’s blocked on my laptop…but not on my phone! :smiley:

Interesting about your Libra Moon!

Definitely don’t delete what you wrote, I think it’s good you put it up there. A lot of people probably share similar thoughts/opinions, so it opens up a debate. Let everything be questioned :smiling_imp:

I must’ve scared the hell out of you with my massive post or something. I think I just ended up stuffing multiple interlinked ideas into one reply, most of them which have been accumulated over the times since all this Stellar Maze drama erupted just over a year ago. What you said somewhat overlaps with a lot of points people raised during that time, so I ended up incidentally addressing the stuff you said and what some others complained about in the past.

Shitty Ni-brain of mine. Sorry. I didn’t see you as hating on Stellar Maze or anything. I just kinda got all sidetracked and went into Ni/Ti rambling. I would have made it neater and tried to make the connections between all these ideas clearer, but I didn’t have time.

(Holy fucking shit, just reading what I wrote, though. The clusterfuck! Jesus fucking Christ.)

And once again, another interesting viewpoint from @T_Alex_B! Always a pleasure.

I know exactly what you’re talking about lol, and I do this all the time! Before I deleted my facebook, I pissed a lot of people off by doing just that :grin: It’s so damn fun sometimes.

Thanks @schlopadoo :slight_smile: It’s a lot of fun discussing stuff with you.

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Yes, most definitely

Phew ok thanks for your words I feel a bit better :slightly_smiling_face:

:wink:

And sorry if I came across too strong!

That’s weird, there one reply from you on my notification email from that I can’t see here… I’m confused as hell :woozy_face:!

No don’t worry i didn’t think you were being mean or chopping my head or anything! You’re just a very good writer with clear thoughts and I was just reflecting on my own incompetence lol. I’ve been worn down this last couple years by my (I think ESTJ?) boss - critical, questioning, doubting, undermine ev.ery.thing.I.do. and that has leads to crippling self-doubt and general angst about doing things wrong. So there’s that I’m dealing with, yey!

Yeah, my profile pic says is quite apt at the mo, lol.

Did you used to make people cry? Aw. You’ve got Libra sun, eh? My Dad’s Libra. All the boys I fancied at school turned out to be Librans, and my first proper boyfriend at uni during my psych-phil years. I always thought that was funny. My step bro is also a Libran and he’s super fun, I also fancied him a bit when we all first introduced! :flushed:. Or rather, I was ‘drawn’ to him as The Biscuit would say. (Any Ally McBeal aficionados out there?). That seems like it fit the energy of that time in my life, very academic, by the book, intellectual, left brain, before I branched off to explore my arty farty creative side. Balance, see?

God, what am I rambling about.

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Hehehe…That’s cause I edited my post.

Phew! :smiley:

Awww, I hope you gain more confidence over time! ESTJ boss for an INFJ sounds like a nightmare. I’ve never had an ESTJ boss, but I can relate to having certain authority figures who crippled my self-esteem and made me hyper-paranoid of saying something wrong. The thing is, shutting my mouth and being self-critical just made things worse. To get my thinking right, I had to Fe first - express myself with confidence!

I don’t think I ever made people “actually” cry, but I’ve accidentally burned or scared a lot of people when I thought I was just passionately explaining or correcting something. Actually, now that I think of it, I’m not sure if my Libran-ness has anything do with this at all. It could, as I’m more of the head-chopping type. However, I think my Mercury in Scorpio might have more to do with accidentally burning others. Like infusing passion into my dry, head-chopping speech. Or…Ehhh, I don’t know. I don’t know what I’m talking about when it comes to Astrology. :smiley:

But yes, I have a Libra sun! It’s interesting how you are a Libra moon and fancied lots of Libra suns back in the days. I’m sure it’s quite common to seek out suns of the same sign as one’s moon.

:wink: Naughty about your step brother, though. finger waggle

That’s what I’m striving for nowadays!

Nooooo! You’re good! :smiley: Don’t let your horrible ESTJ boss get you down.

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