I feel that Cillian Murphy is an INTJ, but I’m not sure. Also, his character Thomas Shelby in Peaky Blinders also appears to be an INTJ. I’ve seen ENTJ for Tommy too though. Though I personally still think INTJ. I feel like Tommy is a very, very extreme, concentrated version of Cillian himself. Thoughts?
Yes, many a thought on Cillian Murphy/Tommy since watching PB. Most prominently where can I get my hands on S4 so I can think on them some more.
S4 is available on Netflix and maybe by now, its floating freely somewhere on the internet. S4 is excellent. It’s by far, the best yet!
I won’t give anything away here, but there is a scene where Tommy is in his office and his maid walks in. She tries repeatedly to get his attention, but he’s completely oblivious to her presence and he’s muttering to himself. Finally he responds and she asks if she should get him a doctor. He says, “No! I know what this is… It’s just me talking to myself, about myself!..” I feel like that is the kind of comment an introverted intuitive would make. To me, it’s very INFJ/INTJ comment. Now, that is in regards to Tommy Shelby, but Cillian himself, seems very much in that same vein.
Cillian is very, very private. He frequently comes off as cold, or cool, aloof and very analytical in interviews. He is typically reserved, serious, and does not joke around really. His expression is often very stern-looking, almost to the point of being disturbingly inhuman. Intimidating and lacking warmth. Smiling is kind of rare. He has that 1000 yard stare, like he’s looking through you. When he speaks, his gaze is often turned upward, as if in conversation with himself. However, he can be very expressive at times. There is typically a lot of eyebrow movement and he talks with his hands a lot. But, I also wondered if that is a learned/self-taught habit to give a better impression, especially as an actor as it’s kind of a requirement. Perhaps, a bit strategic?
He does seem to have gotten warmer with age, though I think that may also have to do with his success with PB. A feeling of accomplishment that wasn’t previously there. He seems to feel a bit better about himself. Maybe he’s not actually as cold or as removed as he seems. Maybe I’m projecting my own coldness on to him,
I don’t really know though, as I don’t really know what INTJs are actually like, in action. Watch him turn out to be one of those ENFJs.
He might be too expressive to be an INTJ. I don’t know. I’m starting to think I’m way off on this.
Spent a couple days rewatching S1-2 (only S1-S3 available on Netflix at the mo in th U.K. & I just missed the recent S4 airing on TV).
Just as a an initial response I’m inclined to lean more to ENTJ for Tommy than INTJ. He seems more action oriented - or quicker to put into action his plans than I imagine INTJ. There’s a pull to be the leader and orchestrator.
More thoughts on this but at work now!
Really?! I can’t believe we would get S4 on Netflix before you guys, in the U.K. That sucks!
I think ENTJ is totally valid. Browsing online discussions about his type produces, a fairly 50/50 split between INTJ and ENTJ. I have yet to see any other types listed for him. I have seen some good arguments for both types and also really bad ones. And I would agree that upon first glance, Tommy is an ENTJ, or what I would think to be an ENTJ. He’s an action-oriented schemer who likes to project that hardass, hard man who will take whatever he wants and do whatever he wants, whenever he wants. And nobody’s going to fuck with him or his family. And he likes to fuck. And drink, and smoke, and do drugs.
But personally, I approach this from; who was Tommy Shelby before the war? We only see Tommy after the War and assume this is just the way he is. Yet, it is often hinted at, that he was a very different person before the War. We get glimpses of his War days through his dreams and hallucinations, but not of the person he was before the War. In S4, you will get a small peak of the person he was prior to the War, during a conversation between him and a new character.
I am more interested in why/how he became what we now know him to be. Why is he so hard, private and extreme? Why does he choose to be so severe? What made him this way? Why does he feel the need to do the things he does? What is his motive?
Regardless of type, he is obviously very unhealthy in a lot of regards. He’s broken and emotionally damaged. He’s emotionally atrophied. I’m really interested in what (severe) trauma does to a person and how the effects of that trauma looks in different types. So, I tend to see him as a very damaged, unhealthy INTJ. I see a lot of his behaviors tend to be a side effect of the severe trauma he has experienced, as opposed to being innate. He has been to war. He killed people. He watched men and horses die. His own life/survival was put on the line. He has loved and lost. Then to have to return to early 1900s Birmingham, a time that appears (I imagine) was of one serious corruption, and time that had a general feeling of bleakness. Of hopelessness. To have to come back to that hopeless world and have to be dealing with the side effects of having been to War. To be perpetually haunted like that. What does that do to a person’s psyche? How to do they react? How do they cope after that?
The old Tommy before the war, metaphorically died. He has been to Hell and back. 1920s Birmingham ain’t much better either. Tommy’s family, the people he knows, and all of Birmingham are left with just the outer shell of who and what he was. I see his general behavior as a side effect of what he has been through. A reaction, if you will. Take any two people of the same type and apply extreme pressure to one. Make them go to war, put them through Hell. The one who’s been to war, to Hell and back, is gonna look very different from the one who has lived an uneventful, safe existence.
I see a lot of people claiming that he’s an ENTJ because he’s reckless, likes to gamble and is indulgent in pleasures of the flesh. They say that is his tertiary Se. While that could be true, once again, I see that more as a side effect rather than being innate to him. He’s reckless and self destructive because he has already died inside. He really only continues to live and do the things he does to ensure the safety of his family. Even though he often puts them in danger, he always has some bigger, further reaching plan. Some grander vision that will ensure they are taken care of and kept out of harm’s way. He really does everything he does, for his family. He drinks, smokes and uses drugs to soothe the wounds inflicted upon his soul by the War. He uses flesh and sex to get out of his head, where he spends all of his time. I think of that as inferior Se. Indulged in, to the max. Grip like. Self-destructive. I feel that an INTJ, having experienced severe trauma like that, would respond with that same kind of heaviness, harshness, and severity. Moving further and further away from human experience, from emotion. Tommy Shelby can’t afford to feel. This is a matter of life and death. Lives are on the line… but not his, cause he’s already dead. Fuck or be fucked.
I just feel a really damaged, unhealthy, fucked up INTJ. A very pressurized, amped-up, and on edge INTJ. Or… I would think that’s what could happen. But, I won’t claim to know anything about anything.
I feel like I could go on analyzing forever, but I’ve already said so much, I’ll leave it at that for now. And I apologize in advance, if I don’t respond in the future as I will be returning back to work soon. Not to mention, I need to crawl out of the black hole that Myers Briggs can be for me. I get lost and start canceling reality too much.
Yes all that you said came to mind too about who he was before the war and how it might have affected him, and how that could an unhealthy INTJ, with the Se coming through negatively in the grip. But there’s something that I’m still not sure of so been letting it sit with me to mull.
I’m kinda new to this so feeling my way through!
Maybe S4 will shed some more light like you say in terms of who he was. Polly hints at his past with reference to his cleverness, confidence and more light hearted, laughing more - that could be youth as much as anything but I get the feeling he would still have risen to lead in some way and get the job done and not be satisfied with incompetence. Then I compare with Michael who gives a more sinister vibe with big plans and no heart to break lol.
There’s obviously something broken (his heart) so I’m thinking what creates a ENTJ type of vibe when broken?
Also the family, protection could that also come from a sense of this is my property sort of thing don’t mess with my things?
Sorry that’s more questions than fully fleshed reasoning but fun to talk it out!
Yes come back when you’ve had some fresh air. I’m doing this on my bus into work at the mo otherwise I might have more constructive comments lol
Just looking at him, he seems like a E3 ENFJ. And just from a quick glance at Wikipedia, he looks like a typical example of the type.
Maybe his subtype is what should be discussed.
Like Brad Pitt (ESTP-ish E3 ENFJ), Leonardo DiCaprio (xSTP-ish E3 ENFJ) or Travis Fimmel (ISTP-ish E3 ENFJ), Cillian Murphy is probably likewise a particular E3 ENFJ.
By the way, Travis Fimmel (best known for his portrayal of Ragnar Lothbrok) is also typed as INTJ or ENTJ in other MB forums. I also thought he is INTJ but was not sure, so I asked Blake a question via mail and he convinced me that Fimmel is E3 ENFJ (leaning towards E8 in his role of Ragnar).
All comes down to semantics. How we perceive the types.
Yeah the ENFJ as Blake describes them in his articles makes sense and I totally see the parallels for Fimmel and the lean to E8 for Ragnar, glad you mentioned that cos ENTJ/INTJ were still niggling as not quite a satisfactory enough fit.
Maybe that’s the approach to use - go straight to Blakes articles and see what description fits, lol.
Yeah, I was defintely starting to lean towards ENFJ for Cillian. In fact, I think it was actually a few years ago, when I first got into Myers Briggs that I suspected that he was ENFJ. Just kind of one of those gut level, first impression things. But I doubted him being an extrovert and that very much goes back to all the misconceptions around what an extrovert is. Typically he is fairly reserved and cool.
It can be noted that ENFJ and ENTJ are look-a-like types according to Socionics. Reason for this is that both these types share the same auxiliary function. As it’s the expressive “persona” function, types who share it might give similar impression. On a surface level, of course.
Since we are referencing to Ragnar in this discussion of Tommy Shelby (Cillian Murphy), there is an example of this look-a-like thing in Vikings. When Ragnar came into Wessex and asked about its king, he was told that king Ecbert is “just like him”. And if king Ecbert is not a typical ENTJ, then I don’t know what I’m talking about.
What I wanted to say is that Tommy Shelby might give an impression of ENTJ, especially if the actor’s role requires it. I haven’t seen Peaky Blinders yet, though
Oo interesting point, I haven’t read anything on socionics I’ll have a read and hope it doesn’t confuse me, lol.
That’s a good clip on Egbert. Helps to understand archetypes through tv show characters, lol. Something to reference.
And the whole thread (web) of love/attraction between well, all the characters but obviously in particular Ragnar-Egbert-Athelstan was explored well, you don’t often get that level of subtle connection, intimacy playing out between the characters in a typical tv show like that - well not many I’ve seen anyway but my viewing isn’t exactly high brow these days! The other example that comes to mind for popular tv is in Hannibal.
What type would you say Athelstan is?
Had to watch some Travis Fimmel interviews as I never really watch chat shows/interviews of my favourite actors in case it spoils the illusion they’ve created of them (sad) but wow sometimes so interesting how different they seem! As obvious as that sounds.
Slightly off topic but the other resent shock was seeing actor Ryan Sampson (Groomio in U.K. Tv comedy Plebs) out of character.
Anyway thanks for the input and your insights!
I’d say George Blagden (the actor) is another E3 ENFJ trying to embody INFJ in the role of Athelstan. But that is just my intuition. As intuition is sharpened by knowledge, my understanding of these matters still has way to go.
A parallel to this could be Cate Blanchett acting as Galadriel in The Lord of the Rings. Galadriel might be INFJ, especially in the books, but Cate Blanchett the person cannot hide her true self which is E3 ENFJ.
I can definitely see Cillian as being an (E3) ENFJ now. Some kind of particular ENFJ. I was definitely feeling that vibe, and yet ignoring that same feeling. Especially since Blake’s recent post, “ENFJ and the Dream Lover” and his arriving that PJ Harvey is an ENFJ. I had PJ Harvey pegged as an INTJ, as did Blake. She seems introverted. She has a cool reserve and kind of detached vibe. A remove. Also, like Blake, her physiognomy, her emaciation, her thinness, made me think INTJ because that is something I associate with INTJs. A Saturnian vibe. As if they are so cerebral, they can’t be bothered by the body’s needs. Cillian’s natural thinness and emaciation, was also very much a contributing factor in my thinking he was INTJ. At least, he was always very thin prior to his role on Peaky Blinders. He had to basically become a body builder for his role as Tommy Shelby to pull off the tough guy persona.
I wasn’t aware of Travis Fimmel or of the show Vikings and his role in it, but a quick look at a couple of interviews proves to be interesting. He’s kind of quiet, shy, and there’s kind of a soft-spoken reserve-type thing going on. That’s really interesting. Cillian Murphy also has that kind of soft-spoken, seemingly kind of inwardly-turned energy going on, A reserve.
Also, don’t ENFJs have Te as the 8th function? I have seen on some sites, that the 8th function is the “role” function. It’s possibly how one may appear outwardly. It’s the mask one may wear superficially in public/social settings. So, outwardly ENFJs can appear formal, businesslike in their approach, and like they’re “itching” to get the ball rolling, to immediately put their plans into action. They appear outwardly as thinking types and when they want to (often I think, as a defense mechanism), give off that formidable opponent /"don’t fuck with me" vibe. There is a “INFJ vs. ENFJ” video on Youtube by a guy called “Type Tips” that talks about this. He also has an article on his website: http://leontsao.com/2017/02/03/428/. To me, it kind of makes sense? Maybe? I imagine, this may be why everyone is convinced Tommy Shelby is either an INTJ or ENTJ. That is of course, if Tommy is even an ENFJ. Also, that may be why so many believe Cillian Murphy himself is an INTJ. Myself included.
Most likely; Cillian Murphy is an E3 ENFJ and his character Tommy Shelby on Peaky Blinders is possibly an E8 ENFJ or just a straight up ENTJ. As it should be, I am willing to separate Cillian from his character though.
Thank you for all your help, Ignas! I feel you definitely brought some clarity to this!
EDIT: I do not agree with my previous statement regarding the 8th function possibly acting as a public persona, mask, “role”. That was a totally bad, shit-call on my part. Further inspection of that theory does not make sense, or vibe right. Being fairly new to Myers Briggs, functions 5-8 are still a complete mystery to me. Disregard previous comment. * facepalm*
I hate to quote myself, but . Here I am, ignoring my own intuition. It’s like I always already know on a gut level, but then my overactive analytical mind likes to come in and point out why that can or can’t be. I often get stuck in those Ni-Ti loops all too often, and it overwhelms everything. I end up moving farther and farther away from my initial gut feelings/intuition, fooling myself into thinking I’m getting closer, that I’m zoning in on the core. The TRUTH. All I’m doing is falling down some weird, black, rabbit hole abyss and getting way off base.
I should’ve trusted that feeling of “he’s probably ENFJ”. Even though I’ve been stalking this site for about 3 years now, I’m still very new to this (Myers Briggs) in a lot of ways and am feeling my way around.
If we’re talking Myers-Briggs (Socionics has a different bent to it, as well as somewhat different nomenclature), then the 8th function has nothing to do with appearance or masking oneself. It’s the most devalued function of all. For example, if you’re INFJ, then your dominant Ni doesn’t give a fuck about Si. Unless you’re closer to it by your particularity: subtype or astrology. And let’s keep in mind that Myers-Briggs itself is a branch of astrology, according to Blake. So he has his own take on things, 8th function included. Now he did not write much about the 8th or 5th function, but from what I gathered here, 8th function has something devilish in it. Could be hell itself at times. For example, for an unhealthy INFJ, who is stuck in his introversion via Ni-Ti loop and circling down into Fi id swamp at the bottom of which Si awaits him. Another word for the 8th function could be blindspot. Something like that.
Well, if you want it bad enough, this is the place to learn. And if you’re methodical about it, you might start kicking ass after another 3 years. (-:
Totally the same, everything you’ve written so far in this thread and the other this last week or so (as well as probably a lot more that is unsaid) could’ve been plucked from my brain. You just have the balls to express it,lol.
Was going to quote you on your ENFJ intuition but didn’t hit send for whatever reason. So yes, like with my own type I overanalyse and distrust and confuse my thoughts with data overload and forget to discriminate between good data (reliable/trustworthy/sound) & bad. Ugh what a mess it can get.
I’d say George Blagden (the actor) is another E3 ENFJ trying to embody INFJ in the role of Athelstan.
Yes I wondered if that was the case after watching this DP/30 interview:
He & TF share a similar vibe - at least in contrast to the rather ernest and hmm, well something more straight not so captivating (many words come to mind but not quite right) Clive Standan, and quietly relaxed steady and more grounded seeming Gustaf Skarsgård - the ENFJ quality Blake describes, the pull, the draw, you can’t quite pull you’re eyes away from them (TF more so), there’s something alive and crackling and I find I’ve stopped listening and I’m just watching, fixated, ‘what’s he up to, thinking?’ Same with Cillian Murphy in interview.
Funny you should mention Cate Blanchard as she popped up in my head this last week when I saw her on Graham Norton & wondered if she was really INFJ as I don’t see it but wondered if this was my noviceness at typing that was the issue. Although I’ve been reading up a lot on Myers-Briggs it’s been more for my personal needs than for typing others.