This is likely true.
I’m not sure if I got what you mean, but I think maybe you misunderstood what I meant. What I meant was that it’s not us but the people talking a lot of pretentious, hollow wind that are lacking in Ti. It’s the fact we DO have tertiary Ti and like it a lot that we become dismissive of such empty garbage. The problem is that it’s this fear of bullshitting that we suppress ourselves from speaking at all. Which is actually kind of a poison to us, because to really let our Ti shine we must engage in Fe.
This is interesting and it may be why INFJs and ENTPs find value in each other’s insights. We compliment each other in this way. Yin and Yang.
Nope. The inferior function is the one that we could be interested in (or hate, or both) but not able to embody.
We all love our tertiary function and we CAN engage in it. The problem is as sacha said, we aren’t quite able to wield it as proficiently as those who have it in the auxiliary position for example. When I think of wielding something proficiently what I think of is “control,” like “control” over one’s voice or instrument. True mastery can be seen by those who can fine-tune and sublimate, unleash, and suppress at their will. People who can’t play softer or modulate other than play loud or fast are those who don’t have true mastery over their instrument. And this is how I see it when it comes to the tertiary function. We might love it to death and try to play it full blast but we don’t really know how to apply it tastefully or usefully. It’s only when we tap into the auxiliary when the tertiary actually shines and we use it in a “perfect” manner as Blake would describe it - kinda like the whole Goldilocks story.
Not sure what you’re saying nope to @schlopadoo. I was saying we compliment each other in the way our aux and tert functions are flipped (ENTP Ti-Fe/INFJ Fe-Ti). Is that what you understood me to say and decided you disagreed with? You don’t have to find it interesting. But I do.
I was referring to this.
Ah gotcha. So you were informing both of us. Thanks homie!
There’s been more than a few times I’ve come across one of your comments on here and it gets deleted in the middle of me reading it. Lol.
What do you fear is the worst that could happen?
Not judging, just curious.
@Ignas. What happened to you? Surely I didn’t offend you in anyway. I want you here.
Putting this advice to action. How do you INFJs view the world? Is it chaos to you and you want to make it neat and orderly? @batshitty Feel free to put your INFP spin on this because it’s a bit of a metaphysical question you might be able to make more interesting.
Of course not. I like you. I just don’t have time to read all these huge posts right now. And they keep multiplying. I have no idea what’s going on. I’ll look into it when I have more spare energy.
When I’m in a Ni-Ti loop, then it’s quite like this. Chaos which I try to put in order. Striving for axioms. For precision. Filling in the gaps, ad infinitum. Neurosis.
But when I grab my guitar, or start drawing, all this heaviness just vanishes. Or if I write a good letter. Or an article. Then fuck you chaos. Even if the room is a mess.
So I’d say the answer to your question depends on the mode an INFJ is in.
Right now I’m in a cosmic order mood
P.S. You can ask me whatever whenever, @LifeExamined. But you have to ask, so I’m obliged to kick myself in a butt and answer.
Sammy, that is a tiger. I am working on answering [in pages], and it is already getting unwieldy… Just give me a bit.
Also want to respond to you @sacha, haven’t forgotten, and thank @Nur.
Thank you Nur.
I did understand you like this yes, but your elaboration clarifies this even further thank you.
I think I’m conflating different things Ti & maybe Si/Se - facts, debating. Maybe you can put this into better words for me?!
If you can’t wield a skill are you ‘qualified’ to call others out on it not using it at all or properly?
If you ’ know’ someone is wrong but don’t have the right answer or can’t access it, can you really say they’re wrong? Will they just call you a BSer? Does that matter even?
I just said some shit on @Nirdre 's thread that accidentally turned out to pertain to this very topic at hand. See link for full context from which the following comments arose from. It has something to do with how each type might see their astrology, when their astrology birth chart represents the hand they’ve been dealt in this life. And see, INFJs don’t even wanna be playing cards at all, whilst ENTPs…
What could happen? I think it already has, and I am working toward… landing.
So, my fear is not so much like being tossed from a tribe, because I am generally not hard to get on with… worse, I am like my avatar. But to come down out of the mist and let you see that I am an eagle with talons, there is the risk of being shot in the breast with an arrow and tumbling out of my sky to be pulled apart on the hard, dusty earth. That is if what was shot down was wanted. I could tolerate that… but not just wasted, and left to die.
Gods I can be dramatic…
I can fecking see my ridiculousness in high definintion. ALL THE TIME.
This alone can short circuit me.
I am well aware this is my own fault. If one just watches and comments distantly… from the mist… people look with some curiosity and when I don’t come closer… look away and go on about their own business.
There is danger down with others, but if you don’t go, you starve. Or perhaps not entirely starve, but if you only touch down in certain places, like home, you do not enjoy the full smorgasbord of possibility.
This is a good query, but a hard one, because this is a very big tiger I wrestle with regularly, all my life in fact. Though I think it was born of my innocent enthusiasm to share with people to start with [Gemini]. And I did share, the truth and still do, though I began curbing/adjusting my words at like five years old to keep the feelings around me… pleasant, approving, almost like I was learning to keep people from looking at me twice, or paying much attention to what I was doing. I was so fucking easy, cake, independant and sweet and free to move around without too much restriction.
It took me years of not understanding why people lie, to if not lie, then learn to evade answering rather than saying things that people could not handle. [Or I could not handle the empathic backlash]. To redirect from myself and soften what was given. Approval, contentedness or invisibility.
And there were times when what I shared or what someone saw of me brought shame, but also, an anger at people for being proper liars themselves. Because I know hypocrisy when I see it. I see mine, to be sure, though like anyone there are blind spots, which @Blake has been kind enough to bring many to light with his writings. So, if I did not feel enough of a smuck before… though do not think that I am not forever grateful and that I know it to be an act of love.
I was/am honest, like autistic honest, until I learned to hide it, somewhat. It is hard to explain because I was and am both truthful and protecting people… from me [and me from them]. I embodied Fe early on and at the same time really struggle with being very direct, either innocently or not.
This place with all of you is very important to me, I treasure all of you characters, your shares and what I learn. I would also like to share [seems fairest to participate which makes more for everyone], because I can see that it should logically work both ways. If I love you, and am here with so many of mine own, why would it not go both ways? But this is where everyone is allowed to be them and state their truths and understanding and I am required to be correct and without reproach. I know, I know. Facepalm.
You are allowed your views, your mistakes, your opinions, jokes, wonkiness or even some wickedness. Whatever you write is okay, it is good, real, honest and I love that honesty. I love how it shows me you, how grateful I am when someone shows me a part of them that is like the hidden me.
However, l wait for condemnation in the form of words that strike or worse, no words at all. At least striking words leave little to the imagination. No words/acceptance is falling through space, or like when folks shake their heads and screw their eyes up and walk away from you.
I need to get over myself. I am going with truth here, trusting you guys, because this post makes me very, very bare.
So my writings, because of fucking Fe, [I am angry that I knee-jerk harmonize] are painfully dependent on your acceptance or what I think will be acceptable. Again, jeeeezus. I shudder, truly. Because this is wrong to you, to anyone I do it to, and underestimates and belittles you. And as a rule, I claim I do not like underestimating people, that I don’t want to, that I find it despicable.
But damn… I guess I have just run from confrontation and pain for too long.
I am not sure if it is just my function stack, or scars that limit movement, but how I come across is like a survival thing. Like I get physically anxious and ill if I think I blew it, and it is all I can think of until there is a response or I get rid of the burr. And this makes me feel utterly ridiculous and absurd, especially if I share something that shows my humanity. Fe is a bashing master.
So, when I do post, and then think about it, what I write can come down anywhere from five minutes to the next morning. If I have left it longer than that, for whatever reason, it will likely stay. Curiously sometimes I just leave shit, and wipe my hands and say, so be it. There have been some exceptions where I go back before a week is up and vanish something especially painful or revealing…
And at first I did not realize I can bring something back from banishment. Which looks silly too… le sigh.
I am Silly.
I imagine what is thought of my efforts, that I could be so wrong, so inept at understanding, so inept at expression.
So inept at appreciating my lack of importance, as I would think nothing of so many things being said. Or if I did, I’d likely just not say anything… no, did not miss that… so again, self importance, hence the need to GETOVERMYSELF.
I hope my mini book here answers your question. I think if I don’t just post and deal, it will get lost and become irrelevant. So, not up to perfect [like there is such a thing and I could get there], but here you go.
I find you eternally fascinating. You’re light, airy and aloof. Your mind is clearly always spinning through your diamond encrusted gyroscope of a brain (like a disco-ball of lightning). Your intelligence is more sanguine and mysterious than it is rigid and conformed. That’s a fucking relief! (So don’t think aloof was a diss). I don’t think you’re made for this world. And that’s why you’re so hard on yourself. Many may think what I just said was mean but you don’t listen to them anyway. You take your individuality as a badge of honor. AND YOU SHOULD GODS DAMN IT!. Wear that shit proudly. Like an Admiral’s chest candy.
I never responded to this!? What a dick I am!
Why is this? I wonder if this thought would help or annoy you. Do you think that what we label as chaos (even entropy) may in fact just be natural order? But that of which we find inconvenient for ourselves.
I think this is what the ENTP has that I don’t see exactly anywhere else. Maybe in ENFPs (but in a retarded and useless way from them). That is. Universal detatchment. I love ENFPs btw. My mom is one. And I like to pretend somewhere somehow she’ll come across this and wonder what she did so wrong to fuck me up. Which has always been slightly offensive to me. How am I fucked up?
As an ENTP I feel I live slightly outside the human experience (just not always as transcendently as I’d prefer) but we’re “human-like” so we travel right alongside everyone in parallel and point things out to them from a two-way mirror. But when people look back at us they only see themselves so they can’t point shit out to us in any meaningful way. It often feels we’re being utterly unseen which is worse than ignored. But…
We ARE human God damn it! And need help. But most of what we hear sounds ENFPish to us. Lost self-concernment disguised as mutual empathy and just another needy attempt to feel good about oneself. Which is exactly what I’m doing right now…
So scratch that. I was joking. This is all a game and we’re just pulsating electrons flittering between atoms beamed out from nothing more than the fever-dream of a cosmic ego yearning to make itself real and extant. That’s the saddest joke of it all. The Universe has nothing to be relevant to but itself which creates a recursive loop of doubt, self-worth and well…chaos.
Jordan B Peterson
I appreciate your thoughtful words and encouragement, and conversation all over 'round here.
I do not consider your saying ‘aloof’ to be a diss.
It is often true.
Neither. Why am I an INFJ? Why are you an ENTP?
I’m an introvert, you see. Outside world is secondary to me. As for the occasional inner chaos, it’s not my natural order. Just a temporary setback.
I study mythology. History of religions. Etymology. Alchemy. Dreams. Jungian psychology. All of my books are on these topics. All deal with meaning. So when I think of Cosmos, it’s not the cosmic entropy I think of primarily, but Cosmos in the original Greek sense, which is the very oposite of Chaos. THIS is my natural order. I mythologize. Philosophia perennis. Archetypes. Mundus imaginalis. Jung. Marie-Louise von Franz. James Hillman. Mircea Eliade. Joseph Campbell. Henry Corbin. The like. This way of thinking, back to the mists of history. This is what I’m tuned into. These are the roots of the tree I’m sitting on. I have neither time nor need for chaos. I live my personal myth.
But don’t think I’m a confessed believer of sorts. I don’t believe in anything. And I believe in everything. I’m tremendously sceptical. And open to ridiculous amount of things at the same time. But unlike you (as you say), I’m not outside human experience. The whole of humanity is in me. Like a fire in my bones. The everburning emotion of what it is to be human. Chaos, entropy – these things interest me, because I’m interested in everything. But do I believe in them? Not in my heart, no.
I do not feel entitled to some eternal meaning though. I mean, no God ever promised me anything. If it’s all but a joke, a virtual reality let’s say, some simulation we’re in, so be it. It does not change who I am. A werewolf.
Tat tvam asi (Sanskrit)
Tat tu esi (Lithuanian)
Hey, I’m actually sleeping right now, so it’s hard to see the text, I’d like to respond to your other points, but I have to practice my dreaming skills.
I beat you to this in another post. I feel you!..sister?