Travel away and enjoy!
Btw, what a cute camel. I live for cuteness.
Travel away and enjoy!
Btw, what a cute camel. I live for cuteness.
Whutts-a-matta wid me?
Wudda-fucks-a-matta wid you, homes?
That’s really common. A LOT of ENTPs marry ISFJs and my first was an ESTP. But it seems more of a initial attraction than one that works through the years.
I think so too. I had that in a deleted comment above. When your’e younger and just being instinctive.
Oh hmm. I think I’ve always been instinctively attracted to ENFPs and ENTPs since a young age. My first “boyfriend,” AKA holding hands and AIM’ing (LOL does anybody even remember that?!), was a pretty boy ENFP who some people thought was a pretty girl in pictures. No, he was a dude. I’ve always instinctively liked very pretty boys or clowns. Tousled hair, oh yay! Really stands out for me.
Not once have I ever been attracted to an ESTP. I’ve had a date with one, though, and he kinda took the lead pretty aggressively (and refreshingly) throughout the way. From that one instance, I can understand the compatibility between ESTP and INFJ. It feels like I don’t have to lift a single finger to get along with an ESTP. He’s taking the fucking lead the entire time anyways. Meanwhile, I stay passive, which feels somewhat relieving. I can even go to la la land, and it’ll be alright, 'cause he won’t notice or he does but he will keep taking the lead anyways.
Of course I rejected him in the end anyways because he wasn’t smart enough and his arrogant playboy tactics annoyed me.
Yeah…but how do I explain this ESTP-INFJ dynamic. They Fe in a way that is very apparent and annoying on my side but in a manner that allows shit to get done. Agh. Like shoving a spoon of food into my mouth. I pick up on the Fe manipulative tactic right away but they execute in a way in which I am forced to reciprocate back. I would feel the pressure looming to just respond right away. My thinking, repressed at the moment - Ni thrown out the window. Then voila, done deal! However, I’d be left annoyed and cheated.
Nonetheless, I will say that nowadays I find Te to be very refreshing and instantly attractive. Te from any T-types. Like a breath of fresh air. I like INFJ men that pretend to be T-type men too, that’s also hawt. All that complex repression of his inner femininity gives me a psychological boner. One INFJ man was very rough with me while having an intellectual discussion. I could tell he did this partly out of insecurity, which drove me even crazier! Oh, and older men too. If he’s in power, that’s even better…Oh fuck, just SHTAHP it schloopy. Jesus Christ.
Anyways, yeah, but Blake be right. ESTP men probably make reliable marriage partners. I think they need to reach a certain age though. I would say they seem pretty dependable, well-rounded, competent at many things, and diplomatic. Can fool others into thinking they are “nice.” They lack sincerity, though. But I suppose that could be a good thing for INFJs! Whatever it is, they are proper vanilla. Everybody likes vanilla. 'Cept for me.
your energy is amped:)
I hope you’re not building up for a dramatic leave, schlopadoo. Narrow is the bridge between the amped and the swamped in das INFJ-Land.
Reading your posts never gets boring though.
I know a reverse couple as well. The late husband was INFP: religious leader of a “pagan” movement, radiating peaceful kindness all around him. Also had a twisted sense of humour (Ni id). His ESTJ wife: the engine of the organization, taking care of business and her husband’s legacy. Always regarding people as variables in her equations. Doesn’t like it when INFJs don’t fit.
It’s in my list of tasks. When Te will meet my Fe, you’ll get your answers!
Take your time! No pressure at all.
The INFJ mind reads the INFJ mind! It has been a stormy week actually. And I’m glad someone doesn’t find my drivel boring! Nowadays, I go on the Maze to let my mind rest and take dumps of cluttered thoughts here and there, stream-of-consciousness style.
Great, keep up the popping & pooping!
I have always had a physical attraction to ESTP men. Every single one I have come to know finds the way my body smells incredibly intoxicating, sexy, and irresistible. I had a male ESTP co-worker who could not be alone in the lab with me because it was too difficult. They are the only type of guy who I’ve ever had say this to me, but four of them have and this was just in normal interaction–I didn’t date all of them. It’s the only type I’ve found so far that I feel completely body comfortable with during sex.
I connect to ESTPs with my body and heart and ENTPs with my mind and soul.
I don’t doubt your attraction for ESTPs and vice versa. I bet you are very sexy and feminine, giving off the perfect victim vibes ESTP men are craving for.
For some reason, I don’t really like ESTPs. Must be a peculiarity of mine, although perhaps I just need to give it some time. Right now, I’m generally only in contact with young ESTP men, like mid-20s or less. They are incredibly immature, partly due to age and perhaps partly due to the generational influence. Most ESTP men I know of this age are a bit Justin Bieber-ish. They seem like perfect, well-rounded males until they get so obviously defensive whenever I correct them on something or show a bit of competence that they know they can’t compete with. In fact, it seems like men of the “masculine” MBTI types of this generation ALL get defensive and insecure around me. This is such a huge turn-off. Can’t tolerate a competent woman? Can’t tolerate being wrong or not knowing something a woman doesn’t know? I didn’t think such men existed until I encountered them myself during my work life. I definitely don’t need such males in my life. I will bat them down mercilessly while they whine about how they don’t like aggressive women. Like, I was being aggressive because I was just assertively asking a question about how some feature works? Fuck off. Nope, it’s not me. It’s them. They need to man up. I prefer the more “neutered” males these days, like INTPs or ENTPs for example. They are more tolerant of competent women and aren’t afraid to learn something new.
Outside of the work context, things are a bit different. Perhaps appearance-wise, I attract a lot of Se-type men. I don’t like them, but they like me physically. The older xSTP men definitely leer at me without any shame. But I thought they would do this to any young woman with at least a decent body. Or maybe I give off feminine victim vibes? In any case, I could imagine older ESTP men would probably have no problems tolerating an assertive woman. The younger men though? They’re fucked. So insecure, easily hurt, and defensive. Nope, don’t need 'em.
I remember Camille Pagila (who I really resonate with and consider to be one of my “spiritual sisters”) once was going on about how all the weak males of her academic department couldn’t stand her because of her assertiveness, but the strong car mechanics just thought she was cute. I found that funny. It’s not completely analogous to my situation, but as someone who comes off at least partly male in certain contexts, it is funny to see, like her, just how weak males are these days. I’m sure their weakness has something to do with the lack of mutual attraction between me and young ESTPs. I intimidate them too easily.
Edit: Oh yeah. And what I said probably seems ironic considering how I said I prefer pretty males. To explicate, I prefer feminine males who don’t pretend to be so masculine, as that’s better than being supposedly “masculine” yet weak on the inside. Plus, I think I am at least half-male pscyhologically. Part of me wants to be the Angel saves, the other half wants a male Angel to save me. I would say the latter is naturally at the forefront while the former is something I try to repress.
This is really interesting. I don’t like ENTPs or ESTPs under about age 35. They lack discipline and often make a bit of a mess of their lives. The ones I get along with (males and females) are either those born earlier than 1980 or then those born into very conservative/traditional households or are immigrants. Since I don’t really have any competing skills with them when working, we seem to get along ok at work. I do project management/financing/directing and they do the lab/design/test work. But I’ve never been in a position of less authority than them so I don’t know how that would be–they need to be overriden in their big picture decisions since they are generally wrong there. The ones that become insecure working with me are ISTPs–I’ve had them really try to hurt my career because they feel threatened by my competence. They can never understand why or how I am successful since they see my use of logic as inferior and logic is what should make a person successful (eyeroll).
The older ESTPs I know crave assertive women, but ones that don’t threaten their dominance or social standing. They create a certain social structure and need a woman that merges into that as sort of a right hand. Usually they are proud of me being successful mainly because it’s in areas that don’t compete with their strengths. But I do find that the way my brain works can make them feel insecure on a personal level–I think my body/looks makes ENTPs feel insecure about me leaving or sexually and my brain/intuition/insights can make ESTPs feel insecure.
ESTPs come across to me as being much more masculine than ENTPs. Maybe it’s the Se and when they are older, they are so good with women that they become very confident. They immediately feel a strong need to dominate and “own” me, but not in an insecure lock-you-in-a-closet type of way that drives me away. The way we interact is just simply very instinctively sexual. I really enjoy the company of INTPs and INFPs a lot, I just find them too feminine for me and I end up running over them in relationships so they don’t work since I can’t respect anyone that isn’t stronger than me through Se or Ne or Te. I also feel like I’m dating a woman, and I’m not attracted to “neutered” males. ENTPs are the weakest masculine types I’m attracted to–I like the ENTJs that I know.
The problem is that ESTPs don’t make me grow. They make me want to settle down and be a family or something, they can make me feel secure and stable (weird I know for the type, but I tend to inspire them to want to make a permanent commitment to me), but they don’t make me grow exponentially like an ENTP can. If anything, they make me want to save them through Ni–give them some direction/big picture orientation, inspiration, meaning. They worship me in a way.
I have a question: do you want to be saved through Se? Like being taken care of financially/physically/etc? And how do you want to save? Through Ni–helping someone find direction/meaning/getting their life together?
Fascinating insights! Your observations are probably more representative of the typical INFJ. I haven’t mingled around long enough to be sure of my current impressions. However, being an ESTP’s right hand/second-in-command sure incites some rebelliousness inside me…
Maybe I do want to be “saved” through Se. I’m not sure. I definitely need some help in the physical and domestic department. Financially…? Maybe… If I continue in the field I am in, I will definitely not earn enough money to be comfortable enough. I will be playing a very risky game too to gain the coveted prize (tenureship) in the academic pipeline. Only 1% makes it, and often competence has very little to do with it. It’s like winning the lottery. So perhaps I need to be helped financially as well. I know plenty of academics who live comfortably either due to old money or marriage to a rich spouse.
Then there is the other part of being “saved,” which is the sort that I’ve alluded to in my previous post. I have a nasty side of myself (Fi) that needs to be purged. I need someone who I can come clean with. Otherwise it becomes too much to bear. I’ve had one really nasty moment several months ago that seemed to have “unplugged” at least one pipe of the many metaphorical pipes that exist within my soul. I became much happier, which freed up my will to live and allowed me to think more clearly. So I’m not sure which one I consider more important. Healing of the soul or having a daddy who will take care of me.
And how do I want to save? Through multiple ways I guess. Ni, yes, I suppose. And Fe. Basically through listening and giving advice. I think there is the other part of me that wants to save someone through sexual submission (Fi), and well, through general submissive behavior. However, sexual submission can be healing and counterproductive at the same time. A very thin line between those two. I would say it is more counterproductive for me in the long run.
My life calling seems to ask me to fight the direction most people would normally go in. That is to fight my women’s instincts but save just a few to keep myself sane. The problem is finding that sweet spot. And I need a partner who will help me in this goal. But not many men would probably be willing to help.
Maybe second is command is the wrong term for it—more like guidance counselor or director…? Goddess or seer? But with ESTPs, I’m not always sure that we both want to go in the same big picture direction…or maybe there isn’t an inspiration to go much of anywhere.
One of the interesting things I’ve found about ENTPs is that we devolve into stress in opposite directions that is not constructive. They go into Si and want to go over history and details and step by step recounting which drives me insane; they want routine and what is historically comfortable. I either shrink into myself and freeze up or then I want to aggressively screw someone’s brains out or fight against someone so dominant that eventually I relax into submission or tear some shit up. That only works with some ESTPs (type 8 probably). I’ve never met an ENTP who was ok with physically aggressive animal sex. Maybe in their imagination but not in reality. But maybe I’ve just never met a type 8 ENTP or my experience is too limited?
In other words, I grow with ENTPs and I stress out well with ESTPs. I identified with @Blake theorizing about the primarily non-sexual longterm relationship that forms with ENTPs—the sexual attraction stays primarily on their side because the sexual part of me comes out under stress or as a relief function from Ni and in that aggressive dominant manner, the ENTPs I’ve known aren’t really into it so it gets suppressed.
What do you experience counter productive about sexual submission in the long term?
I experience the clogged pipes as like a closed system that builds up steam and needs to be released through a pressure relief valve. It feels like processing life experiences leaves an emotional buildup that can create a rotting or corroding inside if not regularly released in the form of long outbursts/rants/emails/etc. Usually ENTPs or INTPs can calm me down with words and handle them well. Sort of like a fascinating event that they observe and then try to logic me out of.
Regarding getting tenure, the easiest path to go is if you are a female in a STEM field. Otherwise it’s hard. If you are in engineering, PM me because I might be able to help with publications and getting money.
I should probably add that Blake is thinking I may be an ENFJ type 3 instead of INFJ. But I relate so much to INFJ (I grew up severely introverted and hardly spoke a word) that I wonder if maybe there exists a wider range of INFJ types than previously thought. Or maybe I’m an ENFJ with autism…
Oh, I want to reply properly…but I have a lab meeting to prepare. So it will have to wait…
But I did want to make a comment on this:
Honestly, I thought you were an INFJ woman, possessing the highest Ti of the INFJ female cohort. Your writing style gave off a thinking flavour. It seemed measured and quiet. You seemed very serious, too…I felt a lot of Fi and Ti in you.
And when conversing with you, I do feel like a puppy pissing around all over the place. Maybe it’s the age gap and my clear lack of life experience compared to you, but you’ve even made me wonder if you’re INFJ and I’m not.
So the E3 ENFJ consideration surprised me. But it also hits home with me. First of all, there seems to be something distinct between you and me, a difference that I’ve found between me and Amerika. However, I cannot quite put it to words at the moment. There was also another thing you’ve written a few weeks ago that has been stuck on my mind for some time. You said:
I can see how an INFJ might somewhat resonate with this, but you’ve said that INFP and INFJ should choose diametrically opposite choices. When I’ve first read this statement, the first thing that flashed upon my mind was ID DYNAMICS. INFP <–> ENFJ
The other thing is that at least based on your posts, what I most remember about you were all the themes of relationships and sex you’ve brought up. You seem to crave for someone very strong, very dominant…the devil lover. You are probably more sexual than you think. Honestly, I do feel quite asexual compared to you. I feel such an intense longing from you…so much more than what I have. In comparison to you, I feel like I’m pissing around all over the place with regards to the matters of love.
And an ENFJ in engineering seems possible…I’ve seen a few ENFJs in STEM with high success, and many high-achieving ENFJs in my respective field, biology, which of all the STEM disciplines requires the least amount of Ti. Here, ENFJs seem to be doing better science than INTPs or ISTJs. It’s because the question matters so much more than technical proficiency, and it doesn’t require a terrible lot of rigorous Ti to ask the right one. Ti really isn’t everything here. And you said you now deal with project management. Sounds like something ENFJs will excel in. Plenty of ENFJ group leaders where I’m from too.
(Btw, thanks for the offer, but yes, as I’ve just stated, I’m a biologist…not an engineer. )
Anyways. Not saying that you are actually E3 ENFJ, but that the possibility is very interesting. Some things really seem to all match up now that you’ve mentioned Blake’s re-consideration of your type.
Thank-you very much for your response to my type. I wonder if the way ENFJs turn out and present themselves is strongly related to the way they are raised and their environment. I don’t feel like I can strongly relate to Amerika—she is so much more girly and detail oriented than I am; she seems to have more access to her Si and her sexuality. But perhaps that is something I could evolve into in a different phase of my life.
I was raised to fit into an INFJ type role by my parents and eventually I broke away and fled as a young adult. I guess that is my life story—trying to fit into a role and even convincing myself that it is real and that I can, then breaking out when I can’t and finding something new. It’s true that I can’t actively see Fi—who am I, what is me, what works for me—I have to try out roles to see, how frustrating and scary for other people is that? And no one, not even me, knows if this is authentically me. Perhaps this is the redemption thing—hoping for someone to save me from destroying hearts when I become who a person idealizes in a relationship and then find out that I can’t stay. Is salvation through Si? Finding someone I can stay with, create a history, and force myself not to break out?
Your insight about asking the right question on engineering rings very true with me and why I can be successful and more efficient than ISTPs and others in my area because they execute with more logic and precision but often in the wrong direction since they don’t know which question to ask/answer.
Your insight into my view of INFP interaction is probably spot on as being ID dynamics. Isn’t that so weird? I’m pretty sure I played the INFJ role so perfectly that I really became it until I couldn’t—and these little clues are what make me an imposter or actress. I’ve also tested as an INTJ—my Ti is strong for an NF but I can tell that it’s not as good as Blake’s or LifeExamined or some of the others here. It’s Ti expressed beautifully through writing, not beautifully executed Ti.
I hope you are able to find success in your field. If we were the same type, I would advise you to find a mentor and have them help you sinc ethat is how I have found success…but that might be the wrong advice for you.
I think Stoick and Valka are ESTJ-INFP tbh
Sorry, Impossible. I didn’t reply to this message, as I was about to save it to reply to other questions above. But I think I pretty much answered them in my other thread.
Just wanted to say thanks for your advice and encouragement. Mentors are indeed a great boon for the INFJ and ENFJ.
Not sure which one you are for sure, but your insights exploring the possibility of being ENFJ were very informative. Thank you.
In which I make a somewhat incestuous post because the closest ESTJ I know is my Dad .
My Dad is a Taurus like me.
Me and my Dad can have a lot of comfortable silences. There’s this feeling of being able to coexist without needing to impede on each other. It’s like an understanding that doesn’t really need to be articulated or analyzed.
What I would imagine as being very alluring in the INFP-ESTJ relationship is that you’re with someone who does all the shit you struggle to do in a matter of fact, in their sleep manner. It’s nice to think you can come to your partner to help you with something that they are a resevoir of information for and find to be trivial.
I think these relationships mainly just feel comfortable. I mean, I’ve got the whole backdrop of being a daughter to my Dad, so that immediately created a need to be in each others lives. And there’s an interesting crossover of that feeling of wanting to find someone like your Dad that is given a little more oomph if that person is also your dual.
I can see a dual relationship working out or being sought after a couple of failed relationships from youth or some love gone wrong scenarios. I wouldn’t want to be with my dual until I had my heart ripped up a few times.
I’m learning I don’t like the things that come TOO easy, and my youth puts me in that place where passion seems a liiil more important than safety (I’m sure some heartbreaker will straighten me out on that eventually, LOL).
But yeah, my Dad has always been anal retentive (hell, militaristic is probably the word) for how things are cleaned and how his house in ran. He has a lot of moving parts, kids and… friends who do what he wants (I don’t know how to explain, UM…),
And he has all those things under control in a very Te way. Order, discipline, all that stuff comes very easily to him.
Haha, I don’t really profess to deeply understand my Dad, but there’s an understanding between us if that makes sense. It’s almost like you don’t have to participate in a dual relationship, it works if you are passively involved. Which isn’t very exciting, but it’s nice to have a relationship that takes care of the effort you could feel just to even, coexist.
But yeah, I could see how this relationship could struggle to get off the ground for sure. Me and my Dad essentially clash on Te and Fi shit alll the time. So, it’s also like a certain closeness is lacking, or at least that what I see in my case. It’s like you don’t have to like each other to have a steady groove of how things go, which is maddening to admit (b-but, I want someone to care about my feelings too).
It actually is just… Not that necessary it seems!
Hm, I feel like I can get hot and randy from Te. It’s like love and hate. I am initially attracted to it, but it becomes very boring over time. It’s like conventional love I guess! Starts off hot, gets boring over time. And you feel obligated to appreciate the boring because it works for so many parts of you and your partner’s life, but ultimately, it lacking that spark and excitement.
And that’s interesting, because this situation shows that what is wanted or desired is often not sustainable. And even if it did gain a sense of permanency, this perpetual sense of longing and passion… Who’s to say that wouldn’t becoming boring over time either?
Ah, but yes! I just wanted to chime in and say I do see how INFP-ESTJ relationship could work and that it has the feel I saw you and others alluding to from being INFJ. The feeling is comfy but somewhat drab! It lacks in excitement, but it gets the job done! Autopilot Bae!
It has that predictability that probably becomes a main element when you start to think of raising kids together, buying a house, sharing assets, etc. In that case, boring seem a bit more affordable and sought out!