Fi minimums for a nonexistent non-ninja (ENTP)


#1

recenlty my friend got me talking about feelings about a mutual friend and my nose started bleeding because, probably, the air was dry. But it sure felt like the nosebleed was direct from the Fi core i was messing with in trying to sort out life as a 31 year old entp.

i just read the minimums articles on infp and infj and regret not reading them earlier as i misunderstood the concept before.

ideas for Entp Fi minimums folks?


okay if Entp uses Ti in the context of Ne, what even does that mean? ive begun to understand Te used by intj and Fe used by infj (thank you thank you) but struggle to recognize my own Ti thing, wxcept in the context of avoiding tertiary Fe temptstion to like, flatter or manipulate. Ti seems marked by lack of strategy for me, like a casting out of a truth, whether there is a person to catch it or not, whether she will like it when its caught or not. but how do i use superego Fi as part of something like this?

when i think of fi i think of
-feeling sorry for myself or entitled
-pretending my shit matters more than other shit
-missing a friend, or losing someone and having that wave of grief or loss that hits and receeds slowly
-hating someone and thinking like “fuck him, id love if he killed himself.”

its a stretch for me to come up with that as it dowsnt happen often for me. is that fi? all those things are notable for striking me as basically adolescent.


tonight i made a list of stuff i want stuff i like. i like the ligts dim. etc.

maybe thats fi

like
risks cliche and is mlre about sound, ryhme and rythm and feeling than Ti clear accurate takes. maybe poetry is a good Fi minimum. been writing poetry every day and notice it hasnthis quality of, like, haze to it. like i dont know if i can revise to make it better. which is not true for me with normal writing.

maybe poetry.


#2

It sounds as hard for you to see Fi as it does for me to see Se. I remember supernokturnal saying something about my missing the full picture of Se and reading your Fi description I got the impression you are missing the full picture of Fi.

Fi is human value in a way. Always being aware or even have one’s thinking polluted by fuzzy awareness of how various aspects of life aid or stress your soul. For example, my parents are alone in their home state and it eats away at me. I keep picturing their end of life without family around them. Even they don’t seem aware of their need for it. Fi feels they will get senile sooner maybe. They aren’t gonna have as much of that human warmth as they need. I remember reading that in Japan they have grandchildren sleep with grandparents and it does them so much good. Even though I’m sure these things vary from individual to individual as far as the need for it. And you read about how grandparents who occasionally take care of their grandchildren benefit cognitively. Etc. Fi just has that fuzzy sense at all times of distance from the warmth.

Not sure how you can make it into a minimum though. Something about evaluating warmth of a relationship, but in the Fi not Fe sense. Hmm. Fi “cherishes” a particular relation. Decides it’s “special”. So anything to do with that and showing to the other the specialness. But minimum.

Because you can’t overdo it.


#3

Thanks lunar for bringing some humanity to my distorted Fi assessment. I think that poetry is a genuinely good option and so maybe I ended up answering my own question

I also think certain kinds of reading. Like reading poetry perhaps.


#4

Further thoughts:

Private experience of emotion—to guard against slipping into Fe, ENTP Fi minimums really need an element of privacy, something for self and no other

Fi probably can’t exist in a population of more than 1; Fe can’t really exist in a population of less than 2; solitary experience of emotion kinda guarantees a set of unusual parameters for ENtP that might be conducive to Fi.

Bummer in that it’s prohibitive of like, shared morning pages but I think it is.

YOU WILL HAVE TO WAIT FOR THE COLLECTED LETTERS OF JOHNONYMOUS WHOCH WILL PIBLISH POSTHUMOUSLY


#5

I wonder what listening to music that moves you would do.

Please do share if you get the Fi minimum working for you. I’m really curious.

With Se minimum I’ve found that there is no real handle on it, but in a clumsy way it helps. Little doses here and there.

@johnonymous what does slipping into Fe do exactly? is it like not being able to say no? catering to others, talking lots, getting lost?

i feel like i don’t understand Fi minimum for entp


#6

Music could be a good idea.

I tend to shy away from it because it’s overwhelming. Sometimes it reroutes my day in ways that are not helpful. Yeah music probably has some Fi thing going on, kinda like poetry.

I’m finding poetry working pretty well. It’s inherently personal for me because I don’t dig my poetry and I don’t want people to see it really, except in the sense that I sometimes want some people to see everything about me, but it’s not like Fe, which is strategic; it’s just like, bare, and vulnerable, and like, the critic in me also hates it from a critical perspective. So that sort of guarantees the “group size = 1” component which precludes Fe from really happening. Even if I share Fi stuff with people it’s just about me, not about the shared experience of the group.

Okay

Slipping into Fe is a constant thing; ENTP is walking on grassy hill in springtime with patches of snow, steep, cutting straight across. Fe is the slide downward and Ti is the cross cut. That’s the difference in difficult of maintaining Ti focus, balancing weight on awkward footing and moving toward target, vs Fe falling, which is like, moving with the momentum of an outside thing, in this metaphor a hill, in most scenarios, a person or group of people.

Fe for me Is, uh, here’s a thing I wrote:

We overvalue our competence in our tertiary function. The ENTP’s is Extroverted Feeling. The ENTP overvalues the importance of eliminating a certain amount of discord in interpersonal discussion/relationships. Expressions of negative emotion by others cause a lot of discomfort, rather than empathy. Something feels wrong — until we eliminate the discord, not until we fix the problem.

Fe for ENTP is in a defensive, hypervigilant stance. It says “I just want to be understood.” It says “Does that make sense?” It tries to pass itself off as an intellectual or educational value. “I really like to be understood.”

In fact, it’s focused on the external position between self and other. bodies, objects, people in the context of a power grid. Hardly even minds. It’s engaged in expunging any questions, not answering them. It’s operating as a shield, not an educator. It’s seeking an Alpha or establishing itself as one if possible. It’s crushing ambiguity and disagreement, individuality. It’s deeply discomforted by doubt and by lingering distrust, especially the distrust that is correctly projected by anybody who has seen the ENTP shift gears a thousand times in the past.

Fe is premature exportation (can I say ejaculation) of the half-assed Ne ideas and theories the ENTP hasn’t done the work of refining via Ti. It’s not functionally the same as Fe in infj or Enfj example, because of it’s weakness. In the same way that you couldn’t say that my shooting a freethrow qualifies as “shooting a freethrow” in anything but name and general form.

When I fight my impulse to “cite” people in a blog-style article, its because I know I only truly want to “cite sources” in such a context to escape a potential reader’s questioning, or to divert disagreement to someone else given the momentary discomfort it will cause me, living as such disagreement would in a comment I might not see/get to respond to instantly as I might in person. In the blogging context such citation or pull toward it is thus a Fe impulse of mine: it’s citation to insulate against doubts, namely my own, in my ability to propose an original idea. I’ve always been a better nonfiction than a fiction writer. Fe for me is a bundling of all my fears of future arguments against my past self, and a machine gun i use to keep people away. It’s an isolating function in the guise of social behavior. It’s antisocial.


#7

Thanks for sharing this. By the way this and your other recent post about praise of entp makes me just marvel again. Entp is like a marvelous creature of tricks and insight and hospitality. I really have to think more about it.


#8

So nice! Thanks lunar for friendly comment. In return I was simultaneously dragging infps in the dragging mbti types post. Literally you posted this right after I had posted the infp dragging haha. Made me think twice but then I just, Carried on!


#9

Teehee. No worries. Like how you have a dragging for the 17th group. Good one:D


#10

I’ve literally just read your comments out to my ENTP partner, who was sharing his frustrations about the feeling aspects of his job. So, so similar to your own experiences and sensitivities! Thank you for opening up here, I know that this isn’t easy for ENTPs to talk about.


#11

Oh good glad it is hitting Home. I have minimal exposure to other ENTPs. I have one Entp friend but our relationship is based on talking about drones and bitcoin.

I think it’s like, Entp very often has the most objective view in the room. And as a result, it can be easy to miss the dunning Kruger reality of the tertiary function. It’s oddly blind. We entps who know mbti or socionics know as competent systems thinkers we are weak at tertiary like everybody else. But we secretly believe we are actually great at Fe. Secret pattern busters.

The metaphor about traversing a hill crosswise is one i am pleased by. I need to remember it because basically yeah Ti has to do with self propulsion and not conforming to the group belief truth that Entp mistakenly believes he can mess with and still get somewhere sincere. Ever downward jaunt takes you further off course.

I also kind of boil it down for myself lately in a kind of Ni way like “be a dick, or a bore, not a whore” lol. *I sure hope nobody is misunderstanding my archetypes” -says my Fe


#12

I’ve been rereading his descriptions. And the reason is I think that I’m completely amazed by what he is describing. It’s like I can’t quite seize what is being described. There is a lot of mystery to it.


#13

Yeah Fi=group of 1 is definitely part of Fi. With strong Fi, you can almost die never sharing your actual feeling. There just is not a way… (if you want to oversimplify). I’ve had these horrible experiences of exploding with feeling and channeling it into someTHING to just have receptacle for all that feeling. But then when the time is possible for sharing it…there is this “I JUST KNOW” this won’t come across in a way that can be understood. And I just trash whatever I worked on. Like it never happened. To never be seen.


#14

could you give a concrete example of this ( that a toddler would understand haha, I’m feeling mighty dumb tonight)?

is tertiary Fe “anxious” then? (does that make sense?)


#15

Eli5

Yeah so

Fe is short term leading people on—overpromising in a way that is unsustainable. In the moment it feels ethical but it’s not ethical it’s comfortable. For Entp. Helps prevent Fi feelings and helps Entp maintain control of others.

Imagine I walk into a convenience store. I’m driving for uber and it’s 1am. All I need to do is pee.

Fe strategy is to buy something instead of just going pee. So instead of walking to bathroom and going pee and leaving I spend $5 without reason on junk I don’t want. This has consequences for me later but prevents anxiety in the moment that would stem from the times that I’m gonna use the bathroom and leave and have some minimum wage clerk actually give a shit and be like “hey man! customers only.” I’m anxious just imagining using the bathroom without buying something. It’s not anxiety about Si rules bevause I don’t think there is a rule. It’s anciety about potential confrontation and wanting to control the situation and preemptively keep the mood good.

Let’s say I get $5 worth of crap and then I go the cashier and buy it and then I’m like where is the bathroom and they say “oh we don’t have one for customers.” This happened once. I had to go to another gas station ad buy additional crap and then use the bathroom.

So usually I ask where the bathroom is before I hand them my card. I have done this and when they say they don’t have one which a couple have done, I say “okay then I’m not buying this, goodbye,” and I walk out. This is very hard for me to do but it’s Better than the time that I did that once and bought it Anyway.

I do not feel good wlakkng our like that I feel like I’m going to get in a fight. I just am hypersensitive to what I see as a negative emotional experience.

Ultimate goal would be to not buy things if I don’t want to and just try to ask for the bathroom and if they say no, leave.

Problem is that when I do Fe all the time I am actually spending a lot of my energy estimating and managing social situations. When I focus on Ti I discover that my anxiety and fear about the social situation are a bit overblown.

But I have noticed that Fi is more prominent when I’m not Fe manahkng everything. And Fi is like, I don’t know, on a short fuse to Te or explosive or something and so it’s scRy hard. Like one time when j asked if they had a bathroom ad the guy said “not for customers,” I said “perfect because I’m not A customer, I’m not buying a fucking thing, this store is a piece of shit bye.” Lol not exactly but approximately.

So maybe my Fi minimum efforts are like me trying to learn how to hold Fi anger feelinfs and other intense Fi feelings which crop up in moments when I don’t do Fe management of situation. Trying to learn to just like, sit with emotion, make body language that says “can’t talk” or whatever and like, yeah, I don’t know. Whatever the next thing you do with Fi is. Haven’t figured that out.

Fe is all about what otheRs perceive my situation to be. Ti/Fi sre more like what my situation actually is. Fe has nothing to do with my internal reality and so it’s just as easy for me to lie as to tell the truth. I’m not in any realm of ethics when doing Fe. Just controlling for perception.

Biggest problem is with people I care about when I set up unsustainable expectations. Over promise and then under deliver. In the moment my other option is to be like “oh no yeah I don’t want to do that or can’t. It won’t work for me.” Then I’m just like, ohhhj shit, what happens now?

That’s why this Fi minimum stuff for me needs to be about stuff that is easily misunderstood. Getting comfortable with being misunderstood by strangers.

Basiclaly Fe puts the most effort in th location that is furthest from me. So family gets less Fe than a stranger. This builds resentment in family too. “Why always taking their side?” Well I’m stretching my emotions to the furthest edge of the argument away from me. If you are close to me you get shafted this way.


#16

it’s funny because entp is non-ninja but i feel like you’re describing the alternative…juggler
thank you for Eli5

and also i love how you write.

i can relate to this. anyone for whom Fe is an energy expenditure (lower down) might do this.

i realize now that i recognize some of what you say from familiarity with my intp husband’s Fe. his Fe sometimes is also “to reduce discomfort”, is trying to just eliminate it fast so business can go back to the other stuff. he’s better at Fe than me when it comes to going out of the house and intermingling. but it wears him out fast so it can suddenly vanish and be totally absent. i don’t know that i know many entps but i experience their Fe as quite good, but to them now i think i get what you’re saying, it’s a slippery thing where it can morph easily into too much Fe …ooo i really do think i get it now but maybe i don’t haha. now i’m picturing your Ti as “nimble” and your Fe as less so even if decent. with your hill example. it’s like since you’re sort of skipping or slicing along, the occasional tumble is okay, you’re basically kind of like very adaptive to terrain. but if you’re constantly tumbling, well that is a bit runaway.

with your Ne you can see all those messes to be avoided. you can see them all around you. it’s like they are near you when they’re not fully there yet at same time it’s not your priority. it’s like they might just easily velcro to you…this is an attempt to use words to repeat what i think you’re saying. lol.

you know i think i see a modification of what you describe in enfp as well. sometimes their Ne sends them all these signals from each person they come across etc then Fe id gets all messed?

now my insane mind is picturing stuff that is cartoony though. what the heck. picturing the enfp getting depressed and picturing the entp being swung out in wider wider circles that have other centers risking getting angry…woah. and this almost certainly is not meaning anything. accidental image. actually now picturing an entp with cones and leaves and tons of shit accidentally velcroed to them. heck.

sometimes when i see entps they don’t seem to have bodies. i think blake wrote this somewhere so that’s probably why. this one entp student i had she’s a cashier and she walked from the cashier to the service desk and the way her feet moved you couldn’t explain it. her head was tilted too in such a way that her perception that must have been going on didn’t seem to connect to the external in a way you could explain. so you describing everything using the word object and relations between objects is so interesting to me because sometimes entps don’t appear to BE objects lol. haha. sense weight of objects without being object.

entps confuse the heck out of me with their coolness


#17

Yes I would say this is an accurate detail from the metaphor. The muscles are different: slicing across a hill requires a certain precision and future planning while moving at an angle forward and also down but not straight down requires more of a thumping, slamming, defensive step like, more weight on your lower foot, or all your weight on your lower foot. Moving this way both enables more speed and then, suddenly, obviously prevents precision. It can feel like a short cut until you realize it isn’t—even the slightest bit of cashed-in downward momentum is as you described basically a runaway.

I like this and think it’s an important observation yes! Like, Ne/Ti is in fact sufficient. It involves a lot more weight on the top foot. But if I keep my eyes like. Ahead and not down, if my body is oriented toward the destination, its not physically exhausting to get to it. It’s within my capacity to say traverse up and down as necessary to avoid a slippery patch, or to jump, or to sit and rest. I’m in a state of control, of myself. But I’m not “one with the Hill” the way it feels like I am for an instant when the runaway sensation happens when Fe sliding occurs. [quote=“lunar, post:16, topic:557”]
this is an attempt to use words to repeat what i think you’re saying. lol.
[/quote]

Just once and for all you should know it always makes sense to me what you are attempting when you do lunar style responding

Lately I have been thinking “enfp has a hard development path” and this probably counts as yet another reason. Enfp probably gets some deep itch id pleasure from Fe and I imagine like, in the metaphor, yeah, people exist for them in their mental space in a way they just don’t for Entp when both types are being healthy. Fi has so much humanity in it meaning our hiker is like “I am human” while Ti just feels like “yeah no.” Fi is more analog? Ti more, subjectively, boxy and binary? Or at least more mathematical and Reductive. Rarely will Ti complicate the situation for Entp it’s just Fe options looking seductively easier.

I’ll ahain just say “maybe.” Maybe it doesn’t mean anything but when your brain does it’s auxiliary thing I don’t ever Think “certainly this doesn’t mean anything.” Haha remember Entp always will look to infp as a bit of a higher form of being than he so I give you many much free passes! Haha it’s a bit of an exercise in not sliding down the hill that I don’t chase infp Ne meanings all around stellarmaze and respond all the time :slight_smile: but your Doing what you do is always enjoyable to watch for me.

This is a description that occurs broadly on the internet and so I tend to think it rises from something real. I’m not sure what.

I will say that it could just be Ni recognition of Entp comfort with the idea of not having a body. Se being where it is for Entp means real lack of competency and real lack of give a shit about this stuff. For example if you kidnapped and tortured me physically we could still get along later. I just can not care about what happens to my body. Physical pain and such, cold, death, these things don’t cause almost any fear response in me the way mental discomfort, shame, restriction, mental suffering do. If you’re married to me and sleep with someone else it truly will bother me less than if you think someone else is more interesting than me. Like run around town and that’s fine, just don’t bore me with the details of who you did today (unless it’s New).

When I think of the one Entp I know quite well, my bitcoin drone friend, I can see there is a sense of body non existence to him. He has severe autoimmune illness with $4000 a month of medicine. He’s told me once it introduces certain pain and hassle and stuff. I’ve literally never thought about it again because he just seems immortal and without pain or anything. He does not occur to me as capable of fear from physical things. When we’ve flown together we imagined the plane crashing and it was really funny. Like in detail what everyone would do and what we would do. We felt we would try to maintain some separation between ourselves in first class and the unsavory characters in coach, for example. Why not. We had earned upgrades.

It’s probably because of how weak we are at Si while it’s a louder thing for you—i suspect infp can see Entp weaknesses and often looks like a slightly lesser type to infp, but somehow floats above it. This would make sense from socionics. Hard to imagine for a dominant jidger with Fi what a person IS if they are mostly the Ne circling out that feels like just a tool a person would USE not actually LIVE IN.


#18

Lol. You’re killing me with laughter.


#19

This is turning out to be a lot of fun and I think it’s sort of the ultimate Fi minimum for me as it comes in the context I’d Ne/Ti. I’ve settled roughly in posting 3-5 times a week and thanks to all of you who hopped through from this link, I experienced quite a bit of traffic! I’ve got a few qued up for this week and a few more in draft form so if you do like sonnets I think i will be pretty good at this by the end of the year. Obviously some of them will be garbage. Not like you can 155 great sonnets or something.

Anyway, i feel like sonnet writing is a lot like the “halter” Blake described in ENTP at Play in Gemini:

God, do ENTPs ever shut up? These buggers can talk for ever and ever and ever without the slightest clue that you might actually want to get up, walk away, go to a quiet place by yourself, and having a fucking aneurysm.

That is, unless they have developed their lovely auxiliary introverted thinking. This is what I call the ENTP’s Gemini function. This slows them down a bit and forces them to rail themselves in on a logic train. It kind of puts them in a halter of sorts, which, they are in any event, happy to chug away in.

Sonnets introduce Fi for me within Ne/Ti context and I’m kinda loving it. Anyway. Yeah. Fi minimums. Or something.