how functions are perceived as from different perspectives


#1

hello. ESTP here. hahaah

why am i talking like this.

anyways. johnny’s recent comment plus sammy’s comment inspired me to create this topic.

so let’s do some assumption, to see each functions look to each other.

and we can help ‘correct’ the definition on the function.

so. i’m Se dominant.
from non-sensory types, Se is perceived as something very ‘surfaced’.
like ‘action’, ‘sex’ and such physical things.

i like what Blake said about instinct. yes. Sensory DOES feel like an instinct.

but not so much animalistic-instinct. yes. there is that. for SURE.

but Se can detect something SO OBVIOUS in my opinion, but completely missed by others.

quoting from a different website.

ESTPs have an uncanny ability to perceive people’s attitudes and motivations. They pick up on little cues which go completely unnoticed by most other types, such as facial expressions and stance. They’re typically a couple of steps ahead of the person they’re interacting with.

the thing is. i don’t SHOW that i’m couple of steps ahead.
because i don’t want to embarrass anyone.

like, when a ‘hot chick’ walks by, instead of looking at the ‘hot chick’, i can see everyone around me that are checking her out. and they have NO idea that i’m doing that.

and i can see the WAY they check her out, how OFTEN they turn their heads. how LONG they stare at her. WHERE they are staring.

this is how i know someone is lying to me.
the TIMING of their response. their SUBTLE facial expression, which usually is stoic. but i know the difference.
their slight change in TONALITY.
their INFLEXION.

and let me tell you. Se Will NOT tell you that they’re doing all this.
and if you’re not dominant Se. you have NO idea how this works. trust me.
i can smell lies from miles away.
i can see the facial expression over the phone.
i can also predict if someone is gonna turn into a hoe. hahaha no, seriously.

there are more examples.
but.

i originally wanted to talk about Ne.

see, i have three Ne users in my family.

so. let me tell you. this is HOW I see Ne. @johnonymous!

  • dirty. (from my perspective) let me rephrase. MESSY. CLEAN UP YO MESS! (especially dominant Ne)
  • ADHD. great multitaskers. i have no idea how they do it.
  • not sensitive to bad smell. or dirty stuff. indifferent towards ‘unclean’ objects. (from my perspective)
  • where do they get all these ideas? how do they come up with them so fast? when does it stop? can we at least start on ONE freaking idea before you tell me your MORE NEW ideas???
  • not enough. not satisfied. more. more. more. whatever it is. there needs to be more. it needs to grow. expand. or… just overthink the hell out of it.
  • can’t enjoy the moment. always thinking about something.
  • get overly excited about possibilities. they seem to enjoy the idea of having fun than actually having fun in that MOMENT.
  • overwork their body. push their physical limit. mind over matter. sometimes too excessive.
  • doesn’t enjoy food compared to me. texture over taste.
  • doesn’t seem to MOVE ON from one thought. like a snowball effect. it gets bigger and bigger. turns into something else.
  • great at seeing potential in people.
  • good at understanding the whole idea of a person.
  • can’t finish a project. usually. starts many projects, left unfinished.
  • this is weird. but they seem to like structures. but always find a loophole and hacks it.
  • they would have sex with things/people they shouldn’t have sex with.

okay. now explain to me what NE is. @krissy and @johnonymous and @lunar


#2

Hey @supernokturnal, I’m not so great with the functions in fact I mix up Se and Ne!!!
I asked my husband to block me from here for 1 month. He isn’t going to reveal how he did it. Teehee he did not block iPad. Next request

Loved your Se description (it sounds fun to have)


#3

@supernokturnal I did not realize how well Se could read people, but it makes sense though.

I’ll explain my opinion of Ne and Ni in broad terms. I see the process of Ne and Ni as the Cookie Monster of experiences and concepts. The cookies being the concepts and experiences. The process alone craves ideas for its own sake. They both function like a junkie that desires its fix of new experiences for Ne and new concepts for Ni.

As far as ideas reaching actualization. I think they seek to conclude in different ways. Ne works to create newer and more efficient structures for the future and Ni seeks to create a new future by juxtaposing existent structures. For example, Ne will create a jet speed train and new train route that gets you from California to New York in 20 minutes. Ni in contrast will purposely spread a deadly virus in New York and replicate time square in California to make a trip to New York obsolete.


#4

I think Se is better a reading people than Ne is. I think Se is subject-oriented, while Ne is object-oriented.

I see Se and Ni as the subject-oriented axis of Perceiving functions and Ne-Si as the object-oriented axis of Perceiving functions.

I say as much in this article.

I know, perhaps, that it is strange to think of Se as being subject-oriented, being that it’s an extraverted function, but, what I noticed is that Se dominant/heavy people tend to pick up on body language, social cues, voice tone, inflection, attraction, and a host of other things related to people’s behavior that Ne and Si seem oblivious too.

Ne is much better at reading situations, environments, general vibes and stuff like that, but, from Ne’s perspective, people are often just seen as an extension of the environment. A pattern.

Se will focus on particular people and assess them in a manner that is similar to Ni. It reads people. It’s just that Se does it at the surface and Ni does it at the depths. They will find the same information, but, in an opposite manner…and direction of approach.


#5

EHow does Ne work? Erm…I dunno. I will take a stab though! Because I love to think and talk about all this mental process stuff. It is the best. So I might be talking about Ne and I might be talking about something else. Who knows.

But:

Open. Very open. To new stuff or “safe” stuff. Not to absolutely everything. Because that would be silly and infantile–I wasn’t just born, I’m not a goldfish. (That’s Si getting in there, I think, and guiding the process, adding some taste and discrimination and maturity to the openness.)

And like Blake said, yeah, it really is object-focused. I’m all about new ideas and concepts and stories. “What does it all mean? How can I use this new intel?” It’s not about knowing people better. It’s about knowing stuff better and seeing how cool ideas could fit together with other cool ideas…like, what if I learned all about myths and then invented my own myths and put them on top of a story about a futuristic culture? Or what if I learned about genetic engineering concepts and then learned to draw animals better so I could draw my own crazy ‘genetically engineered’ animals? _Hm…how do you draw feathers? What animals do I like best? I should go learn about birds…_Those are two real topics that I have spent time pondering. I have sketches, I have ideas about those topics. I think that’s Ne. I dunno what else you’d call that. (If you asked me a few months ago, I would have called it “thinking” or “imagining”.)

Just feel relaxed and that’s what it feels like. But it’s also excited. It’s like a massage but also cocaine. It’s floaty and focused. It definitely has a feeling to it, though. A compelling idea feels. If it doesn’t feel then it’s not my thing. I can do brainstorm stuff on command, largely from practicing on my own time, but on my own I’m not just creating piles of random ideas. Which I seem to hear in generic descriptions of Ne. Again, I see that as silly. Why would I do that? I want to explore meaningfully.

Spacey. Yeah, I misplace stuff. I am also quite committed to things-in-their-place so that the outside world becomes part of my brain. If keys are always placed [there] then I will always find the keys. Simple. (Maybe that’s Si again, guiding me?) So sure, I’m “messy”, but I want access to my books and journals and shoes and whatever I’m into at the moment. I’m not gross–nothing stinky or moldy. Just piles of dry goods. It feels homey to me, though. What I love and am excited about I surround myself with. Minimalists who have nothing on their desk? What is up with that? It seems neurotic to me. Desks are made for piles!!

Also, and maybe more importantly, I’m spacey mentally. I totally drift off constantly. No matter where I am.
Example: I was walking down the street once and got a call on the cell phone. It was a family member. They said, “Didn’t you hear me honking at you just now?” I said, “No! Really? Just now?” And apparently they had driven right in front of me and yelled my name (on a kinda busy street) and I did not register. Though I had distantly heard a voice shout, but didn’t look up. I thought it was funny. They thought it was annoying.

Takes me forever to make many decisions. Big ones, small ones. It can be disappointing to myself

Not sure what else. I’m open to a pretty wide range of companionship, but I rarely initiate social stuff. Love alone time, but only for a couple hours and then I need some people or new surroundings to recalibrate or neutralize my head. Otherwise I’ll get bummed out.

Ne doesn’t really drive bad behavior in me any longer. When I was younger it was mostly drug-focused. I was a bit capricious too, generally, but usually with a reasonably consistent ethos driving my decisions.


#6

lol I’ve been contemplating your description for an hour and it only just occurred to me that you mean physically messy. I’ve been thinking how Fi vs Ti auxiliary in enfp and Entp could mean a slight difference in messiness, intellectually. recorded like a ten minute voice recording thinking out loud about a response. And then just now realized you mean Physically messy.

I love this Thread context–different perceptions of functions by different personalities. It’s kind of the only way I engage with mbti as you can actually see if you look for it in a lot of my posts. I don’t have introverted intuition and I don’t have extroverted sensing so I understand myself the way geologists understand the core of the earth: by watching for known waves that travel through it and seeing how they Measure on the other side and how the measurement defies expectation. The algebra of core exploration: known factor plus X (core contents) yields known measurement, lets solve for X.

So my understanding of Ne is greatly expanded by seeing others attempt to describe what it looks like. And my understanding of Se can really only grow as I describe it and then have others tell me what they see it as, and then I can measure the gap and see a lot about Se and a lot about myself based on what the gap in our perceptions of the same thing yielded.

Anyway, I didn’t read “messy” as physical because It’s so foreign to me to describe a cognitive function in the context of the room around it lol. Nah that’s not true I can. But more like: messy is the COST of Ne done right. I suspect that intellectual messiness may be a cost of Se done right.

More to say for sure later.


#7

Yes! Gotta talk it out. Ne>TI, perhaps? But it is just SO RIGHT for me to process this way


#8

Where can I score some of this “Ne” and how much does it go for? :grinning:


#9

Wikipedia is a good, cheap source. :wink:


#10

Yeah I have about 7 years of recordings now that I Figure are mostly useless but it’s like a journal I realize. Most done while driving.


#11

Physical messiness and general disorder is the hallmark of dominant and auxiliary Ne from my Ni perspective. And it seems to be a universal trait of all XNXP types. Messy, messy, messy…


#12

@supernokturnal Just had a question I’ve been thinking about… how/when does Estp veiw Ni?? How does it show up?


#13

I can’t speak for other ESTPs because I don’t know that many.
but I feel like Ni comes with pain and suffering.

i think I might have developed this function due to a lot of fucking traumatic experiences.

holy shit. so much shit was happening.
so much that it made me afraid of future.

other ESTPs that I’ve met, seems rather not too deep. just worried about making money and having fun. I think they develop Ni as they get older. and starts to appreciate the depth of life. like questioning meanings of life and all that shit.

i questioned my existence around 7-8 because I was going through hell. Like ‘why the fuck am I even born?’

seriously. No one taught me this. this is why I believe in God.

as I was walking through the nature, mountains surrounding me, despite all the trouble, being physically emotional mentally abused and whatnot.
there was sudden wave of peace that came upon me.
and I know it’s God. higher being.
because I was praying so hard.
no one taught me how to pray.
I just naturally did it. because I was kinda desperate.
and I felt so empowered. Like I could go through anything.

and at that moment I told myself and God.
that I will go through everything and anything to understand human suffering so I can relate to everyone and help them.

Ni feels like a specific purpose.
older ESTPs have this.
one ESTP businesswoman said she wants to make a lot of money and create a support group for women.
things of that nature.

that’s all for now. maybe I’ll think of more later.


#14

@Sammy

okay. so Ni feels like avoiding small talks.

INXJs typically don’t do small talks. especially INFJs.

whenever I meet them they go straight into deep diving.

testing the water to see how much I understand what they’re talking about and then they go all the way back to their childhood.

there is no middle ground. it’s either they don’t really tell you anything about themselves. or they tell you everything.

well. that’s how it comes off to me personally.

Ni also feels like deep anxiety. I don’t know why. but that’s what I see.

Ni likes language. poetic. word play.

Ni doesn’t see the surface. it goes straight to the soul.

Ni feels like a core. something or nothing.


#15

Thanks for explaining this @supernokturnal. I just hired some estp’s. Trying to communicate and get them to your level of Ni understanding. At least an awareness of it so it’s not as much of a blind spot. How are you with awareness of future outcomes? Does this always stress you out? If so how do you compensate?


#16

Ni to me is all the things you list (and others) except for deep anxiety. In fact it is the opposite of anxiety; hard to put into simple words, but powerful, confident, penetrating, intense should give you a sense of its flavour.

Anxiety for most types is commonly associated with their inferior function, so it’s no surprise that you described Ni that way. Much of my own anxiety was and is Se-based; usually around an upcoming event or situation that my Ni believes is likely to involve a lot of Se-related activities, or is potentially physically uncomfortable, boring or dangerous.

Over the years, I’ve developed a degree of confidence in certain Se-type activities and no longer feel much anxiety; these include dancing, swimming, cycling and travelling in general. However, if my work asked me to travel to an unsafe country such as Syria or Iraq, then I would feel a huge degree of anxiety. You could say that is only reasonable, given the potential dangers, but my fear in this area would be so great as to refuse to go under any circumstances, even if I was assured of a miltary escort at all times! If (in a moment of Fe-weakness) I had reluctantly agreed to go, the ensuing anxiety would get worse and worse as the event approached, to the point where I could think of little else and would feel shakey, nervous and sick to my stomach.

I used to get like this at the thought of travelling to any Third world country, but after having experienced some incredible trips to Africa, India, Latin America and South-east Asia, I now only feel a mild level of anxiety of the prospect of visiting a relatively undeveloped (but otherwise safe) country. This usually involves obsessively researching any potential diseases that I could be vaccinated against, as well as the local weather and environmental conditions. Again, this seems sensible, but even once I’ve done my research, when the time comes to pack I will find myself putting more and more unnecessary extras into the case “just in case”, including a shedload of medicines, insect repellent by the gallon, enough sunblock to blot out a Supernova, and clothes for all occasions (hot, cold, dry, wet, inbetween etc.).

It drives my ENTP partner to distraction, and in this sense he has been very good for my Sensing insecurities, using his relentless logic and confidence with the external world to point out how very irrational I can be in this area of life.

I would also feel anxiety if asked to participate in a sport that I was unfamiliar with, or had to do a presentation to an unfamiliar group of people. I also don’t much like dressing up in costume, and avoid fancy-dress parties whenever possible. My partner’s company is holding its annual Ball next weekend, and I only agreed to go when I heard that the dress code was “Las Vegas”, as I knew I could get away with wearing something stylish and non-ridiculous. Last weekend we chose our outfits from the hire company, I was greatly relieved when the shop proprietor suggested I go as a rich Texan millionaire-type, wearing a cool shirt, stylish jacket and a cool-looking Stetson hat. Sorted!

But in the shop was another middle-aged chap and his wife who were going to the same event. I was incredulous when this staid-looking, tall, straight, white guy said that he wanted to go as a Las Vegas showgirl! The costume he chose was a slinky, revealing over-the-top cheesy gown, with high heels, a daft blond wig and an outrageous feather headdress that made him about 15 feet tall.

When he asked me what I thought, I said “I think you are incredibly brave”, as there is no way on God’s Green Earth you would ever get me to wear something like that! I might be gay, but I won’t wear drag in any way, shape or form.

One time at school when I was about 10 or 11, we had to take part in this stage performance in front of all the parents. I was roped into being part of this Chinese-style dragon, ten or so kids underneath the dragon-skin providing the legs so it could seem to move like a centipede. All good, I thought, no-one can even see me under there! Until a couple of days before the show they told us we had to wear a grass skirt to create the exotic effect. I was mortified and appalled by the prospect, but had little choice but to do it as none of the other boys even blinked at the prospect!


#17

hired ESTPs? hahah for what position?

be straightforward with them. be blunt and honest. and very clear. don’t beat around the bush.

they’ll do anything if you ask nicely.
but straightforwardly.

i protect a goal. one goal. or a few.
but I use Se so I take it one day at a time.
so it doesn’t stress me out
but I definitely have to see some growth or outcome as soon as possible to reach the goal, Ni.

that’s how I tackle problems or projects.
I do it right away. action. no pondering.
and as I move I adjust accordingly.
if there’s errors, I fix it along the way. I’ll make it happen as long as I see some results.

if any, what problems are you facing communicating with them?

oh, and get straight to the points. facts. details.
ambiguity is the worst.
Ni and Se back and forth will create clear picture though.


#18

haha yes, I was referring to this as Ni.
I was saying ‘Ni to me’ as in ‘how I see Ni operates on others due to blah blah blah’

Hahahaha oh man this is too funny :joy:

but dang! you travel a lot!
I admire your experiences.
you must then be able to speak multiple languages in bits and pieces?

any recommendation for exotic but safe travel?

i love how you embrace your ego! it’s awesome!
but then of course you are older than most INFJs I know so it makes sense.

i feel like Ni Dom is born with mature soul.
but their body is not yet adapted to their mature soul.
so they slowly but surely bring their body into the soul that is already in the destination waiting for their body to finally catch up.

that’s how I feel in reverse.
I feel like I was born physically capable and wanted to experience everything and anything. and my Ni caught up and now I have a purpose to use my Se. instead of wasting my energy on useless fun that won’t last long or that doesn’t have any meaningful impact.


#19

I hired 2 to run two different locations within the chain I work for. So… thier in charge of 20 to 30 people each. I’m hoping they can positively manipulate results like profit and customer service by motivating people. But I’m getting nervous. They seem too over confident. Do they really believe what they say? I have been overly blunt with them but it doesn’t seem to be getting through to them. They say something cute like “when people tell me I can’t make something happen it motivates me to prove them wrong.” I’ll ask them how they’re gonna do it and they’re like “cause I’m motivated.” Micro managing is not my thing… they get paid for a reason. My best managers are enfj’s, and enxp’s…and the best…istj’s with esfj assistants. Lol. Wanted to try estp’s out cause they seemed so motivated and great with communication. Is this an act? Can they get shit done by motivating people towards a specific goal?


#20

Hahahaha this is so great!

yes. they are very confident and they do believe what they say.

when I was 19 I joined a company and I had to go around talk to business owners and convince them to sign contracts. I seem too confident in the first meeting, so my boss told me to calm down because I’m hyping myself up.
so, like those guys said,

this is SOOOOO true.

i got super fired up and proved my confidence with results. was I satisfied with my results? honestly I wasn’t, because I felt like I could do more. UNTIL, I compare my results with other people and I outscored them all. meaning my result itself was higher than all of them COMBINED. and I told my boss I have the right to be confident because I backed it up.

yes. push their button.
doubt them. because that will motivate the hell out of them.
my dad doubted that I was never going to get good grades in English. because my highest in English was C. average D-.
next year I got A+ and I was dancing with my report card shaking it in his face.

don’t give them those NF type of encouragement.
don’t say things like "you can do it!"
say "can you do it? are you sure?"
stroke their Te id.

they might rub those employees the wrong way sometimes because ESTP can be blunt and harsh.
but they are likely that they’ll bring numbers up.

Yes. this is very possible.
and don’t check up on them so much. let them prove results to you.

i motivated my little brother who couldn’t do a single pull-up, in two months of MINIMUM training, he did 50 pull-ups in a row.
now that’s a motivation isn’t it?

throw them challenges. ESTP love challenge.
and make them compete with other operations.

doubt them. challenge them. make them compete.
but acknowledge them when they bring results.

ESTP is all about efficiency. they can make things run efficiently to bring in numbers and profit.

but.

they might not be better than your other managers at customer service, but challenge them anyway.

Idk what business it is but tell them stuff like “can you bring this place rating higher?”

let’s see.
if they’re that confident, then it’s a good sign.
let them walk their talk

after two months I’d love to know how they did.