INFJ Fi ID, Clarification Please! Am I evil? Or just fly, like that white guy, not Hitler.....maybe Hitler. Includes Hitler.


#1

Yo butt mongrels

I have some questions, not to mention a long prose of exacting self consciousness. Ye gods I fee like I may well be the fucking epitome of an INFJ stereotype, but here goes.

Fi

I’m only just becoming aware of how often I become overwhelmed by it. I would appreciate any feedback regarding if my understanding is correct?

When I feel myself going under, one of either two things seems to happen;

  1. I turn into a total self pitying wreck of a human being who neglects all self care, depressed to the nines, all is worthless. Just leave me here to rot in peace, I would never kill myself however, too selfish for such an act. Yet I almost enjoy the self flagellation because in the weirdest way, it gives me an excuse not to act, not to be even. Ah, now I’m sounding hammy. How can one ‘be’ when they are so self conscious of all possible beisms?

  2. I become a self righteous prick who undermines others by pointing out all that is wrong with themselves and the world at large and what should be done about it, basically projecting all my miserableness and fear. You better listen, I know best. Of course no one wants to hear such preaching so I give up on it all and basically start sounding like this;

Also I found this the other day, which relates to my birth signs and I could not get over it’s accuracy. It supports and explains all the above. Fuck you planets! Don’t I get a say in all this? Am I just a Chess piece of the Gods?

All this self righteous behavior, which seems directly related to over focusing on all that’s horrible in the world becomes too miserable to bear after a while especially when I realize I can’t live up to such high standards myself. Fuck I’m not here on a one man mission to save humanity, I’m fallible just like the rest of them…I’m a fallen angel…fuck that’s just like Lucifer…Christ I could be so evil …I could literally trick the world. Oh my god I understand Hitler, I know how he did it, the power.

No! That’s fucking horrible, Hitler was a dick! how on earth can I ever like myself now?

which only leads me back to stage 1.

Pretty messed up huh? Yet during these times of constant media fear baiting not to mention the fact that there are so many, many things fucked up it’s so, so, hard not to fall back into all of this. Especially as my spider senses are telling me things are just gonna get a whole lot worse, what the fuck does one do?

My question is

Be this all the cause of the Fi ID and is the nature of the Fi ID to see everything in absolute negatives only without the ability to escape such negatives oneself, and so to project them back onto the external plane and wage holy war on them?

This is all just happening in our heads isn’t it? All of it? Yet that still doesn’t make it not real does it. All experience is real.

Cus like, that’s deep man. That’s some heavy metal shit, yet i’m not sure I want to be in the mosh pit anymore. I’m kinda soft and bruise easily.

Thanks for listening, sorry it was all about me. I’m an INFJ don’t you know?
┌─┐
┴─┴
ಠ_ರೃ

p.s.

Isn’t it funny, Hitler just wanted to paint.

If there was ever an argument for the Arts to have better funding…

“This child seems to be displaying sociopathic tendencies?”

“Quickly, the paintbrush, get the fucking paintbrush!”


#2

Thanks for Uncle George. I don’t know if you guys have officially typed him but there’s your observer effect in INTJ loud and clear. I agree with him, plus of course one day the universe itself will die a heat death- I don’t see any of it as cause for self-pity or alarm.

I don’t have any comforting words or advice for you; I think you did that pretty well yourself in your last sentence.


#3

You mentioned evil in your introduction too. Seems you need to at least give it a go. As far as your definition of evil carries you. Let’s see, how could one be evil? You say, “I could literally trick the world.” What does that mean?


#4

I actually prefer Hicks myself, Carlin was brutal, I agree with him, but just maybe still hold onto some idealistic hope of a better world.

Whether that comes from somewhere that can actually be of use rather than just projected Fi, which I imagine was Hitler’s case (in the extreme) was what I was toying with here.


#5

Haha, well my definition of evil would be the total absence of love, or rather the actions and behaviors that arise from such a state rather than the person themselves. When I say ‘trick the world’ I’m talking about the danger of combining that inner state, which lacks sufficient love or ‘safety’ with a self righteous mindset. That can only end in tears for all involved. An INFJ could easily present themselves to be the most charismatic and persuasive of leaders but whether they do good or evil in the world depends on where they are coming from internally. If it’s to ‘get revenge on the world’ then they tend to become very controversial figures aka Hitler, Bin Laden.

Now I was being a bit tongue in cheek, I don’t literally believe I’m in danger of becoming such a character but I can certainly see how such people develop to be so, I even feel a degree of sympathy.

From my personal experience I’ve just been noticing a recurring pattern whence I desire to learn the why’s and the how’s of the world and then start to uncover lots of dark, nasty stuff. I think “My goodness people need to know about all this.” It all starts off as a noble intention, a white knight wanting to ride in and save the day. Problem tends to be (If my understanding of Fi is correct) that even though an INFJ may understand the dark side very well they can’t necessarily handle or process the incurred feelings and thus becomes subtly overwhelmed by them.

The danger is you then stop being helpful and instead start projecting your own fears about the world, but because you ‘think’ and ‘feel’ you know best you get annoyed that no one seems to care. Which leads to you start to hating the world and everyone, even though in the start you just wanted to help. When I’ve reached this place I’m a total misery, I can walk down a street with daggers of contempt for everything and everyone. It’s not nice and the only person who suffers is me.

It’s literally like Yoda says, fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.

It’s the same for everyone, only whilst some may go get shitfaced at a bar and start fights on the street. An INFJ has the capacity to allow it all to fester within until they have enough reason to launch a crusade of righteous retribution. All because they can’t handle such feelings or don’t know what to do with them.

In a more total sense, I heard a quote recently that said something like;

“There are only two types of people in the world. Those who live from love and those in need of love.”

That struck me as being pretty true.


#6

Hm. I look at evil as more subjective than that and thus having no useful definition. I can definitely see evil resulting from this internal state you speak of. But when we look at Bin Laden for example, I don’t believe he saw himself as evil. He saw himself as a savior to his people and his religion. I haven’t read the Koran, but to the east, the west is evil, ya? The west defines itself as good. Especially the U.S. So, who defines world’s definition of good and evil? Ever see or read Watchmen? Who is more evil? Hitler or all the people who let it happen? You say you feel a degree of sympathy. I certainly do too.

One in the same, yes?


#7

Is this the best intro from a relative newcomer ever or am I missing some context?

:bowing_man:t3::bowing_man:t3::bowing_man:t3:


#8

Yeah like I said it’s more the behavior and actions with intent to cause suffering to others that I would term ‘evil’. Of course evil is entirely subjective on a more surface level, when it comes to people/countries justifying their actions but does that ever make killing others morally right? Look what’s happening over in Burma right now, so called Buddhists committing acts of genocide against the Rohingya people. The justification being a retaliation against Rohingya Muslim insurgents, only it seems to amount to indiscriminate killing of innocent men, women and children. So I would say that is evil behavior, especially if done with an intent to harm and derive satisfaction i.e. blood lust, yet I still wouldn’t say those who commit such actions are evil themselves, rather they have become conduits for evil to work through.

I saw a post on FB trying to justify it all but only succeeding in summing up just how warped this whole evil labeling thing has become.

“When peaceful Buddhists raise their weapons you know just how bad Muslims are”

I don’t need to explain the irony

So yeah I stand by what I say in regards to a lack of love because it simply prevents real human empathy and breeds hatred instead, then things do get all subjective and messy as a means to justify who’s right and who’s wrong.

The problem seems to be a very severe misunderstanding of spirituality which allows people to feel justified, even justified by God to kill without shame because they believe they are doing the right thing. Now Is that evil or is that ignorance? Is ignorance the cause of all evils or is evil a thing in and of it’s self?

Maybe Evil is just some kind of human created mirage, as a means to explain such inexplicable behaviors and actions but I feel there’s more to it than that.


#9

No context missing kind sir, just pure imagination.


#10

Hmm. Hope you enjoy this, because I like playing devil’s advocate.

I really don’t think people intend to hurt people. Even Hitler. Sure, I’ll say that. Jeez what’s wrong with me? Okay, from his perspective, he is ridding the world (doing good) of those stinkin’ Jews. People to him at this point, are no longer individuals. They are a race. A race that must be exterminated. See - easy job he had. Let’s look at those who actually did the dirty work. Now that’s some fucked up shit. How did these people do this? I’d say it’s because they were wearing a uniform. Easy peasy.

Okay. After review of what I said up there, I change my mind a little. People do intend to hurt people. But it does not make them evil.

But see, in my example, we aren’t killing others as in individuals or even people. We’re killing a race. There are no individuals’ morals here. There is a country who used to be the shit and now isn’t, but desires to be the shit again. Also, someone broke Adolf’s crayons.

Say waaa? :wink:

Yeah. Agreed. That’s shit. Maybe those are millennial Buddhists?

Are you saying ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ are objective terms?

Maybe. And maybe the term was created so that someone or someones can be right and good. Something to fight against. Something to conquer. When really, it’s just part of human nature. It’s neither good nor evil. It’s human.


#11

i appreciate your definition of evil as action taken in an absence of love, @Helix . it does seem more helpful than the traditional binary of good vs evil.

i also appreciate:

it’s human. & it’s the question of free will: where do our innate tendencies/ individual biology/ conditioned responses to our past experiences/ karma/ etc end & our free will begin? aggression, tribalism, prejudice, etc are all part of our cultural & evolutionary heritage. none of us is exempt from this. there but for the grace of god etc.

what i struggle with: only within a space of privilege can these questions even make sense. if we are the ones whose lives or families are endangered, isn’t “evil” the individuals, &/or the system, that threaten-- or fail to protect-- us? & if we do inhabit a position of privilege, how do we act out of this knowledge without falling into the shame trap, that inner darkness that distorts, embitters, closes ranks, paralyzes? as you suggest, i have not personally abetted hitler, but i do participate willingly in a racist system that actively disenfranchises & even endangers other human beings. & given this reality, how can i act so as to commit, er, less evil, while recognizing that due to all of the karmic conditions mentioned above (not to mention my general deficiencies as a human being), i will not be able to dismantle this system today? is it enough to attempt the balancing act of embracing the intention to act out of love/ empathy/ compassion while holding at arm’s length the temptation to label actions (& inaction!) as evil or not evil? to say: “this is the world as it is in this moment. what can i do right now?” for me the answer, on those rare occasions when i remember to ask the question, is always “not nearly enough.” but sometimes there is one small thing.

thank you for making a space for this conversation. i’ll carry this with me today.


#12

yes! Go Erika!
i agree with almost everything you said up there.

Yeah, it IS perspective.

and often times it makes me wonder why God of Hebrew was so violent.
if it’s true, he literally killed millions of people on earth.
by earthquake and swallowing them by a whole.
10 plagues of Egypt, killing first born of every household.
flooding the entire place and drowning eveyone including babies.

and if you look at it from his perspective, then sure, rightly so.

just like you said, from Hitler’s perspective, it was the best thing for him.

so… what the fuck?

and i believe that sometimes killing is absolutely necessary.

if there was one person that is planning to mass-murder big population of one’s nation.
weapons ready, armies ready, and ready to take action.
and knowing that if this person dies, rape, murder, destruction could be prevented.

then is it right or wrong to kill this one person? is it necessary?

or should we let it play out and see where it goes?

so we have to consider the context of this event.
was it to create more wars? or to create peace?

sometimes, conflict is absolutely necessary.
to say fighting is bad. i disagree.
it CAN be bad.
but sometimes conflict, fighting, beating, argument is all necessary and can make things even better than before at the end.

there are people out there who completely avoid conflict because they think it’s 'bad.'
but what problem can you solve just by holding onto resentment and possibly blowing up later?

there are time to speak, and time to shut the hell up.

time for war, time for peace.

there’s time for everything.

all is necessary depends on the context.
timing


#13

Great responses everyone, really made me rethink and ponder a few things.

@liminal I like what you said about living within a space of privilege. Outside of that space who are we to judge? How do we really know what actions we would take if we found ourselves in endangered positions. I guess its easy to moralise when your not a victim to such scenarios.

In fact when I reflect on what I believe It’s for that reason that I have big issues with the criminal justice system. Whilst I don’t condone crimes such as murder, rape, gang violence, thievery etc. Sometimes frequently ask myself how would I have turned out if I had been born and brought up in a broken home, in a rough neighborhood. What would of happened to me if I had been abused by my care givers as a child, if I had no positive role models to bring me up? That’s when I think the way we treat such people doesn’t make any sense, you don’t have to condone their crimes but to treat them as being totally lost, as being inhuman doesn’t help anyone. If I had spent my entire life being made to feel worthless, like a total outsider from society and to then be put through a system of punishment and incarceration, which only reinforces how deplorable a human being I am, why on earth would I change? Would such change even be realistically possible?

It takes me back to my original thought of ‘evil actions’ being the most likely by-product arising from people who have received little love in their lives. Which results in a psyche built upon pure fear for ones own survival, when someone is viewing reality through that lens, it’s impossible to trust others or build loving relationships which results in a profound lack of empathy. Anger, rage, hatred, violence and ultimately destruction to one’s self and others usually ensues. On one end with have common ‘petty’ criminals on the other end we have high functioning sociopaths and psychopaths who often make it to the top tiers of human influence and power.

The resulting behavior from such people could then quite aptly be termed ‘evil’ because it is behavior that is being acted out from a void of love. In a biblical sense evil became manifested when Satan fell from heaven and God’s love. Thus, being completely separate from the original source of love the consciousness of Satan become a creative force of evil that ensnared Humanity into delusion. Hence, evil arises in Humans when one is separated from love and is ignorant of the cause. (The esoteric explanation is much harder to understand but the ‘result’ is basically the same) This story is what plays out in the microcosm of Human consciousness. It’s why sociopaths are so good at deluding others into accepting such behavior. It’s why those who most as risk to falling prey to such behaviors vote for leaders who appear to condone them, as it means they need face whats inside themselves.

I think the real problem, as you guys have highlighted, is the lack of distinction between the individual, the behaviors and the context. A criminal commits a crime, society labels the crime as being bad yet labels the person as being bad also. The conclusion, up til this point, has been they need to be punished to learn that such behavior is unacceptable and then they won’t commit such crimes again.

It’s clear that this method does not work however, even when there is the threat of execution, people still get executed. There’s something more going on beneath the surface. Maybe our reluctance to acknowledge such things as a society makes us all culpable in aiding and abetting criminal behavior because we expect people to be able to pull themselves up their own boot straps. If not, then it’s the O’l sparky chair for you my boy. If a child hits another child we don’t put them in prison, we tell them the behavior is unacceptable but we don’t incarcerate them. When an adult hits another adult, it’s ‘assault’ and they may well end up in prison. Yet if that adult had no emotional education as a child, no supportive, loving or guiding background at what age does one expect them to just suddenly ‘mature’ into a fully functioning and emotionally stable member of society? 18? 21? 30? The belief that ‘they should know better’ and therefore deserve harsher punishments needs to be thrown into the trash because it’s completely useless. I’m coming to believe there’s no such thing as a ‘mature’ adult, rather we live in a society of atrophied and damaged children.

Prisons should be front line therapy centers. Check out the below trailer and the accompanying review that explains what’s happening. Whether you agree with such therapy or not and I wouldn’t judge until you’ve tried it, the results in terms of rehabilitation have been very positive. Especially when it comes to individuals where nothing else has worked.

It’s why I don’t necessarily agree with everything you’ve said @supernokturnal

I think it’s too easy to just say there’s a time for this and a time for that. Yes I do agree to some extent, purely because we don’t live in a perfect world and it’s not going to turn into paradise anytime soon. If me and my family were being attacked by someone who was intent on killing us, I doubt I would try and engage them in therapy to try and uncover their inner demons, by then it would be too late and I would be forced to defend myself. I’d just hope I could so with the utmost compassion.

The same could be said for two nations engaging in war with each other, once it’s started, it’s started and yes then conflict, defense and killing can all be explained away in such contexts. Yet all your really dealing with is the effects, your not looking at the cause, since all things that happen on this planet are the product of the human mind and whatever else influences it. By ignoring the possible causes the only choice we then have is to play philosophical words games to try and justify the effects.

Just think about war for a moment.

Does anyone here, and I’m guessing your all mostly westerners, do anyone of you have any desire to go and kill someone living in Russia, China or North Korea?

Just a normal everyday person trying to get on with their life just as you are. I know I don’t, yet on an almost daily basis we are being led to believe that war between these nations is becoming increasingly likely.

Why?

If that’s what the leaders of such nations want and they are prepared to go to war then should they not go find a small uninhabited Island somewhere and fight it out amongst themselves. Because I want no part in it all, yet people on both sides get duped into believing that the other people are the ‘bad’ guys and so accept the possibility of war in the guise of fighting for their country. It’s pure insanity when you actually think about it, it’s literally insane. On a mass scale it’s just the same mentality that is present in the individual criminal who is raised to believe that they have to ‘attack’ to survive in case someone else attacks them first.

In regards to Hitler, WW2 only started because he was able to convince enough Germans that going to war was perfectly reasonable and essential for the survival of the German people. He whipped them all up into a frenzy of national pride whilst targeting specific groups as being the cause for all personal dissatisfaction. Whether he understood the deeper psychology of what he was doing or was being unconsciously driven to self-destruction is up for debate, yet the exact same tactics and psychology is present in our leaders and societies today. It’s happening everywhere.
That’s what I meant about the ability to ‘trick the world’ you could go as far as saying it’s ‘Satanic’ because it basically amounts to pure deception.

If people were more psychologically self aware (Yes I’m sounding like a total INFJ here) then they simply would not comply with their leaders wishes or demands, on both sides. It’s why people have to be brainwashed to the extent they are in somewhere like North Korea, but don’t kid yourself that such brainwashing does not happen here. We’re the ‘good’ guys remember?

I know I’m talking in the realm of absolutes here, but really to make sense of any of this that’s where you have to go in my opinion, and then trace outwardly through all the resulting subjective dualalities to see how it all plays out. I’m not saying that such dualaties and subtexts should be ignored because they do take a life upon themselves. Without them we may never learn, nor feel the need to grow. They do serve a purpose in ‘higher context’.

Yet we can’t change the world by just wrestling with the external effects and trying to justify the reasons why. You have to come to at least some understanding that everything that happens ‘out there’ is the result of what happens inside the collective mind and is being projected and played out. At least we then all have a starting base with which to work on. In the same way the prisoners in the above video are being taught to do.

Also @supernokturnal I’d be interested to hear your ‘spiritual’ understanding and reasoning’s for evil. Am I right that you have an interest in such things? I’ve seen some posts where you mention Jesus, how do you reconcile ‘evil’ and the belief that ‘Killing is absolutely necessary’ with the teachings of universal brotherhood and ‘love thy neighbor’?

For me, I believe to really understand all of this you have to be prepared to venture into those realms.


#14

I’ll answer this portion first because it’s almost my bed time and the post is long hahaha

so, for time to kill, it doesn’t have to be a person. don’t we kill animals and fishes? are you a vegetarian? vegan?
well. I love meat. and I need it. So there is time to kill those animals. not to sound gruesome. And I’m glad someone else is doing it for me. I wouldn’t want to see it get slaughtered in front of my eyes. I don’t think I can eat it.

well. murder and killing has slightly different connotation.
even God of Hebrew didn’t want people to murder.
but in that Era, where nations use swords to fight, the Israelites had to defend themselves by fighting the other nations.
why was it necessary to defend the people of Israelite? to prevent the nation from getting completely annihilated and/or being influenced by other pagan worship, which included throwing babies in the fire and other nasty shit.
and the seed of promise was not yet fulfilled, so the nation had to be protected. for the seed (Jesus) was to be born through this nation.
so after he was born, the promise was fulfilled, no need to protect the nation anymore. so Jesus preached and taught brotherly love amongst all nations. and not picking up swords to fight back.
for he said, if they hit smack you on your right cheek, turn the other cheek to them.

and in Israel’s time, evil was more clearly defined by mosaic rules because they didn’t have government. so a nation without police can easily turn into hell.

but when Jesus came and taught the new law, he didn’t define evil specifically. it was all about intentions. heart.
he didn’t come to teach rules. he came to show true love. because with that, there shouldn’t be evil.
and it was said that all men are sinful and we fall short of it.
and definition of sin itself is missing the mark. if the mark is being perfect in our beings, we cannot achieve it on our own.
so, going back to love.
it’s easier to talk about if it’s being said or done by love or not. rather saying it is good or evil.
and the definition of love is in 1corinthians 13 and it is pretty clear what the true love is.
it has essence of what’s truly good through that definition.

did I answer your question?
I tried to simplify everything so I hope you got the message.

so basically, agape is the best measurement for what is good and what is bad.
and I believe that cannot be argued.
agape love. not some emotional delusional infatuation.


#15

they’re brainwashed as much as we are. or anybody in their religion. or in high school.

because that’s all they know.
there are people in North Korea who knows it’s bad but cannot comply to their inner value because of fear.
same goes for religion. or society.
fear drives people to do unwanted things.
it’s not that people are necessarily unaware. yes. that too.
but that goddamn fear.
peer pressure. fear of rejection. fear of isolation. fear of punishment. fear of loss.

and there are tons of people being persecuted in North Korea for trying to fight back. and they do it in public.execution. I think if you’re older than 12 it’s mandatory to watch it.

if fear tactic is part of brainwashing, then sure. we’ll call it that