STELLAR MAZE DISCUSSION FORUM

INFJ through the lens of Capricorn Moon

Yeah, I think what I was thinking (mmm) was that Saturn rules the sign of Capricorn where your Moon is placed and Moon represents NEEDS

Saturn is dispositing your Moon and is placed in Aquarius.

Aquarius is about people/society. Human brotherhood. And sisters too.

With Saturn placed in Aquarius the theme is generally one of alienation from one’s brothers and sisters. Social isolation. Fear of society, people, and the whole fucking deal. Xenophobia. A feeling that one doesn’t fit into any ready-made group or ism or clique. There is a lot of pain experienced by this not fitting in anywhere, a feeling that one has been cast out. Exiled.

There can also be a lot of insight into society and its workings because one has been on the outside looking in. One has never belonged…anywhere. And that’s one of the most painful things a human can experience, being that humans can primarily be defined as “social creatures”.

And so now you don’t need fucking anyone. That strikes me as typical Saturn stance - “I would rather crawl over broken glass than admit I NEED x thing(s) of sign it’s placed in”

So, I think that’s what I perceived behind your question of asking “How can I not need people?”

I know you didn’t ask that but that’s what I heard.
:hugs:

To me, all that sounds a bit like Aquarius Moon, too, at least based on my understanding of the way you described the Ti id (normative) of an INTJ. So my confused ass needs a bit of teaching here. What’s the difference between Saturn vs. Moon in Aquarius? Cause some themes seem to overlap.

Edit: lol, OK. So I guess what I was trying to say in a PC way was why those two placements seem so similar. I get that Moon = needs, feeling nature and Saturn = what you’re scared of, what’s repressed (?). I roughly get the differences between the two planets and that all we need to do is plug in the characteristics of a sign into the right equation… but I always struggle with the elaboration bit afterwards. Sometimes astrological descriptions of different planets in the same sign sound quite similar to me… and the longer the description, the worse it gets…so my confused ass needs clarifications of the subtleties.

Damn…you’re right.

I forgot about the whole reason behind why I was obsessed with money. It wasn’t about some stupid private island. Not about getting rich. Just trying to solve one logistics puzzle.

The reason was always Aquarian. And Saturn, I see, makes sense. It’s all my fault. I fucked it up.

Things didn’t have to go this way, but they did and it’s because of my choices and mistakes. So I see how now I don’t really have a choice, only on the surface level - the choice to either be forced into doing what needs to be done, or doing it willingly.

The religion stuff too. Saturn in Aquarius. It’s all for my family. I have no other reason.

Thanks for understanding. Yeah, it’s been painful.
Not painful enough. I deserve worse.

Karma’s not a bitch, just gotta pay my debts is all. To me.

Even deep down it seems it’s still selfish.
But it’s just something I think nobody will understand. Because they don’t know what they don’t know.

I’m not a drama queen. That’s just a clown act.
With the facts, no use in getting worked up about it.

I also see the abstract side of it. Of Aquarius. Humanity. What I cling to.
Maybe, not anymore.
We’ll see.

deleted.

Yes, but then why do those two placements share similar themes and manifestations? There is at least partial overlap. It tells me that there is more to understanding each of these placements than resorting to the simple definitions of “needs” or “fears” of X (Aquarian matters).

Also, to me, the INTJ Ti id (normative) description comes across quite negative in outlook with regards to people. Some element of fear also seems to be involved in the picture. And then there’s this theme of being an outsider experiencing man from afar… to experience pain of not belonging anywhere… to not need people. So yeah, either Moon in Aquarius description is only a loose metaphor for INTJ Ti id or there is something more to understanding how each sign manifests in different planets.

Maybe this is all very obvious to people here, but it isn’t to me.

Also, why’d you delete your post?

deleted

Whoa. I just woke up and saw your comment. Short reply to the first part is that I get it and am aware of if.

Having said that, I still wonder whether defining Moon as needs or Saturn as fears is too simplistic. Perhaps it does an adequate job for establishing clear categorical differences between planets for astrology newbies…but there might be more to both of those definitions to fully understand the symbolism and role of both of those planets. It’d be good to get this out of the way by asking the Supreme Leader.

And actually…I’ve been also softly angling for revisiting the meaning of the id and the associated astrological symbols. I think I’ve seen some reference to Saturn being a potential metaphor for the deep/lower id in the stack. Technically the lower id is connected to the twelfth house, which I think Blake says could be best associated with the “lower side” of Saturn (with “higher side” representing the superego). Anyways, I wondered whether this had anything to do with overlap between INTJ Ti id description and Saturn in Aquarius. But maybe not!

Anyways, I just woke up and am typing on my phone without drinking my morning coffee. Mah brain is not working and probably won’t be for the next two weeks as it’s been completely fried by my work and still recovering… :slightly_frowning_face:

Good stuff you’ve written. I’ll write out a proper reply maybe later this week?

I figured as much.

It’s not a training wheels, it’s a line of distinction. Every relationship between every celestial body can be reduced to a categorical distinction. Each of these categorical distinctions have a marked influence upon every other relationship possible, as well as upon every other categorical distinction possible. It is not an infinite list of possibilities. It can likely be described in less than 100 symbols. In fact, I can say with certainty that 12 celestial entities will form exactly 66 unique relationships (forming the basis of 66 categorical distinctions). I can say it with this much confidence because I derive this number from a mathematical process I invented. It checks out. So however many entities you wish to include in your system, there is a corresponding value to their geometry of relationships.

As another example, let’s say it was 8 entities we were comparing, that number would be 28. There would be exactly 28 unique (nonredundant) conceptual boundaries between any 8 components in a system. The benefit of nonredundant categories is that it counteracts the brain’s tendency to conflate meanings.

We’ll see. I don’t think Blake is going to respond.

Feel better soon.

Thank you. Unfortunately I will be deleting it shortly. It was such a pain to write, I can’t imagine anyone bearing to read it without forcing themselves. The ideas are full of contradictions anyway.

Well at least give me time to read it a few times when my mind clears up during the day!

…and is it just me or have you just swallowed up my soul again and spit it back out?

Whatever bitch, I realize I’ve got the email notification. :smiling_imp:

I was also disappointed to see the comment was deleted. I saw it right before bed and only skimmed it.

I haven’t been writing because I’ve been mentally unwell, but have been lurking. Was excited to see this thread as Capricorn moon in relation to this forum had been on my mind (you, me, Tiny, Alex and Garb all have Capricorn moon). I’ve been climbing out of my hole and hopefully will be back to writing soon.

@schlopadoo
I think you are confused because the distinction hasn’t been made obvious. The major difference is not in the theme, but in the psychic part that channels/experiences the theme, represented by the planet. I too have been thinking about Ti Aquarius id of INTJ, especially since I’ve been unwell. I had though my frozen/mute distress state was INFP like, but in retreading the Ti id article I see it is INTJ related. Just last night I was considering upper vs. lower id, and the planetary assignments. I would love to talk through it, as I still am in some disagreement with Blake about which planet(s) should be assigned to the lower id.

As for planets in the natal chart, the way the symbolism is processed through psyche is a bit different. I don’t know about reducing each planet to a single word. I understand how that could be useful, and the pleasure taken in reductive elegance, but the price is some flexibility that I’m personally not willing to sacrifice.

@nr.nom I agree with “needs” for moon. For Saturn I think “boundaries” is a better fit than “fears”. Fears play an integral role in boundary formation and I do see how the argument could be made that boundaries can be reduced into fears. That reduction is just too pessimistic for me to swallow (very Saturnian), even if I eventually decide it’s correct after more thought. That said, reducing the archetype of Saturn to “fears” is a very Capricorn moon thing to do.

Watching this unfold with pleasure.

I’m sorry. But I must do what I feel is right. This is my basic dilemma. Do I need people or no? Because I seem to need people to talk with, about my ideas. Or it could be Fe tertiary temptation that “feels better” than Ti auxiliary. I think so. I’m still figuring it out. But my go to action for developing my theories and logic would be the dialectic method, basically. Debate is one manifestation of this, or just conversation. But there’s a problem when my logic is structurally impaired, and not because I need to be right in the discussion, but because someone who isn’t me , who doesn’t see the problems in structure, might run with what I’m putting forth, and it fucks them up. I want to be cautious about this.

I’m sorry to learn you’ve been unwell. I hope you are well again soon. I do recall your interest in Capricorn moon, and I also had that in mind when I started this thread. I’m surprised to learn there are so many Capricorn moons here.

I disagree that there is such a price. I actually think it’s the opposite, that it would increase flexibility. The problem is, we’ve got your view and mine. Which is correct? We would only know after performing such a reduction and examining the results. I still think I’m correct, though, because I have past experience with a similar enterprise.

I can agree with that. It opens up my mind to other interpretations of Saturn I have looked into. The thing is, in my particular circumstance, it very much corresponds to fear, and I only have one fear in this life so it makes things very simple for me.

Sorry, I forgot to reply.

I don’t know. Maybe it’s just a familiar feeling. It makes me wonder about how vindictive / bitter / petty of a person you are. I am, very much those things. So if you can relate to that then maybe.

Okay just make sure to take it all with bucket of salt. Sprinkle that shit everywhere. Good luck.

I think it was the bit when you went on about how you didn’t like what you’ve written because it was full of contradictions. It just carried a very different flavor to your usual writing, at least from what I’ve read thus far. I tend to get critical of myself often, when it comes to not meeting my own Ti standards…which ends up in Fi id self flagellations and post withdrawals!

Do I come across as vindictive, bitter, or petty? I’m curious because I’ve noticed some people have strong reactions to my writing here. And even in real life, I’ve seen many people get immediately on the defensive around me. Anyways, I didn’t feel any ill feelings towards you during our convo yesterday. I did feel a wave of sadness or bitterness, but that was from the vibes you emitted to me.

Maybe the only thing of those three I related to, at least based on my mood yesterday, was the bitter part. I am often baseline crabby most of the time. A little seething and annoyed. It’s a Scorpionic thing mixed with Ti cynicism. It comes across as a silent tension, a revealing and concealing sort of thing…a little bitter and secretive? Can be pretty sharp and cutting, too, at times, but often not intentional/personal. I blame my Mercury in Scorpio placement (rules my IC and south node) interacting with my INFJ sun and INTJ moon subtypes for that. Science, exhaustion, focus, and interacting with people I am still unsure about boost this default state of mine. And I have to say that I like you but find you a little tricky to figure out, so it’s hard for me to know how to behave with you. Hence I give you my default tense and secretive Scorpionic front.

Anyways, I hope you’re alright…because I did feel something from you. Not sure what it is.

BTW, you and I have pretty close birthdays. So I have a Saturn in Aquarius squaring a Pluto in Scorpio, too :wink: I relate to a lot of the things Blake said with regards to the Saturn placement…I might elaborate more on my experience in some other thread where I narcissistically go on and on about myself. :stuck_out_tongue:

And going back to this again. I wonder… is this how you see Fi, particularly INFJ Fi id? Fi id can look like all of that. It’s like a “lower” manifestation of Scorpionic energies. It’s pretty “unfamiliar” territory to ENTPs, and they can have different reactions to them depending on the ENTP individual. Hell, I’m only trying to imagine how an ENTP would deal with such energies dwelling inside their own makeup!

Oh yeah… speaking of Fi id… now I want to go back and admit, yes, I can relate to being all three of the above! But the vindictive and petty part only comes out when I feel truly wronged or am feeling particularly insecure that day. And I am relating less and less to the vindictive/petty part over time.

No. That’s not how I see you.

Very interesting. A thread would be good, “Saturn in Aquarius squares Pluto in Scorpio”. Then, any astrologer looking for a data point in the subject-referenced science of astrology can look at the thread for the real shit.

How about you start the thread and I can interview you by asking questions to frame the dialogue.

I hadn’t thought of it that way. I’m thinking about it now.

Maybe it’s Moon Fi id. I’m not sure.

For me it’s if I feel unappreciated when it counts, I can resolve myself to moving on and severing connections. That’s the bitterness. For vindictiveness, it’s that if someone offends me, even if later we become friends, I always get my revenge. And the friendship usually ends. As for petty, it’s when the ones who were taking me for granted eventually begin to understand what they were missing after I start to leave - and they reach out - instead of reconciling, I lock myself into walking away.

I think this is Saturn in Aquarius, or at least, Saturn in Aquarius is what makes me aware of it.

I made a little chart for myself, maybe you’ll find it interesting. It goes something like this:

Connected and Attached: Love
Disconnected and Attached: Hate
Connected and Unattached: Ambivalence
Disconnected and Unattached: Apathy

My problem would often arise with being too attached. Either love or hate. Kind of like a control freak.
I strive to be ambivalent instead. I find this gives the best results for everyone. More important than the attachment is to be connected, because that is the only way to understand, and subsequently, help anyone.

Maybe that’s my ENTP way of dealing with the stuff.

I believe I understand.

OK YAY!! Good! :kissing_heart: :kissing_heart:

And I think a thread is an excellent idea. Not sure about the Pluto squaring thing because it adds another dimensions) (Pluto in Scorpio and more importantly(?) the house involved, Saturn sq Pluto, then the implication of the signs themselves squaring etc etc) that goes beyond the Saturn in Aquarius themes we’re discussing here. But if you’ve got the right questions to ask to properly investigate how a Pluto in Scorpio square aspect would color things, sure.

I can feel that I have a mouthful of thoughts and feelings to share but I have to admit that I’m pretty tired and blocked…and depressed…so it’s been hard for me to say anything on the forum these days.

Your exchange with Batshitty is pretty fascinating to me btw. The INTJ vs ENTP approach to “science” is a divide I’ve been observing for years…and still my thoughts aren’t fully formed, but I would dare to make a short comment here that you are displaying a commonly featured ENTP drive towards “reductive elegance” that an INTJ (depending on his/her development) may not necessarily agree with. I’d say the ENTP-INTJ clash is analogous to the ENFP-INFJ clash. I’d have to expand on these ideas if I have time, because I realize that I’m not expressing my thoughts with the nuance that I want… so I just want to forewarn people not to hastily run with my idea just yet.

And like the little fucking Libra I am, I stand in the middle between these two drives. But maybe nowadays I’m leaning a little more towards the INTJ drive. I’ve come to accept it, despite my long time admiration and bias for the ENTP outlook on science. And this would then lead to a ridiculously long personal post of mine describing my experience in scientific research, and the INTJ and ENTP mentors/heroes I’ve been with…my eventual acceptance of the type of scientist I am and what I’m good at and what I’m not…my scientific vision…Ugh tangents, tangents everywhere. Tangled thoughts and experiences.

And @batshitty, I owe you a lot of replies. lmao. But I did kinda sorta break my brain (and body) not too long ago so the Fe/Ti thing is just not flowing. Plus I had some emotional nervous breakdown a few days ago, which definitely doesn’t help. I did want to ask if you were up to describing more about the “mute distress” you were talking about…because I feel like I experience something similar and that it might be similar to what I’m actually experiencing right now… although it’s possible I’m just in Fi id mode that has been INTJ-ified (aka not actually “feeling“ Fi id, and experiencing Ti as this tired, grumpy, seething energy that doesn’t want to discuss or break things down further but just wants to demolish shit in explosive, manic Te catharsis). Uhh there is more to all this, important shit I probably forgot to mention, so I would actually love to describe at length what this experience is and compare to yours.

Anyways, I’ve got work to do now. Backlog of automated segmentation analyses…bye bye.

Nommie or Nomster, whatever floats your boat, I will start thread about Saturn in Aquarius or Saturn square Pluto later. Tell meh which one you’re up for. nomnom :cookie: :cookie:

Make it “Saturn in Aquarius” and, because I rather like this kind of phrasing, include “with continual reference to Saturn square Pluto”.

In the thread, we can touch on what it means for Pluto to be in Scorpio for the square, as well as how it manifests differently in each house.

Okey dokey, I’ll get on it now.