Influence an entj: Trudeau to Trump


#1

I think this came up before. That you could influence an entj by just touching them in their sentimental heart strings. Then they will feel loyal.

This made me think of that. What Trudeau did just seems like the perfect gift for an entj?


#2

Trump not entj! I will never accept this!! Hahah. (I do think he is especially pressed/snake-brain cunning estj with a kind of charmed astro chart though).

Loyalty is more an ESTJ thing to me. They have loyalty to family and inner circles and sense of legacy. He can’t fire people from his inner circle as long as he believes they are loyal back to him. Even though he’s the “you’re fired” guy, he sticks closely to his family and select group of sycophants or supporters (Bannon has been underhanded to him, but Trump thnks he is ultimately on his “team” therefore does nothing, Flynn was mentioned to be compromised but Trump would NOT let him go, Flynn has to resign on his own volition to leave the circle). They hold long dirty grudges unless you can grovel and suck up. I think if Obama apologized profusely or if other dems played very nice, he’d be pretty happy about it. This is what Trudeau did. I think Trudeau is probably ENFP and will play the suck up game if need be and will probably not let Trump bully him.

ENTJ seem liable to fire their own friends and family if they are not up to snuff–even if they will still be friends with them lol. They try to surround themselves with excellence, not sycophants as far as I know. However, they also give lots of chances. If you fail them, you are yelled at and fired, but if they find use for you in some other avenue, they will plug you back in. I think the kind of grudges they hold are a bit different. It’s less dense but more lightning and visceral but dismissive. I think although they may enjoy ego strokes, they are not easily assuaged just because of it. I think of my ENTJ friend and how she can become offended at someone attempting to compliment her without basis in order to have an in. These things are a bit of an insult to her intelligence, I think, even if she will allow them to make a case.

I think in order to really influence and ENTJ you have to be talented in one area or another and use your area of expertise to make a good judgement on them or help them achieve something. This is why they are seen as mean or manipulative: They, like ENFJ, can discard people who are not of useful nature to their forward looking projects/causes. I see Trump bumbling around with useless morons while blustering around calling them the “best” people and it just breaks my sense that he can be ENTJ. I will say though, that ENTJ may also have a soft spot for what they see as “potential” in people. They can invest in someone as a protege with a lot of resources and be crestfallen when that doesn’t pan out. I think ESTJ can be similar with their own friends and family too, though I kind of feel there’s probably different flavourings to them respectively.

O’Leary, the frontrunner for the leadership nomination of the conservative party of Canada, may actually be ENTJ (or ESTP playing entj lol… I haven’t watched him as much, but from what I have heard so far, he does seem a bit more salesman/showman than commander…). I think were he entj, he will have a good chance of usurping or outflanking Trudeau. Trudeau will otherwise have to sputter out on his own in some way like sometimes bored/frustrated ENFP do.


#3

Yes, I think with an entj there are 2 routes. This route you described, which is kind of a more rational one, and the other sappy route which only works when it works (it can also backfire and isn’t enough on its own usually).

Isn’t Trump too much of an Earthquake to be estj? I am curious though on how you could get an estj to be an Earthquake. What would that look like<—just what the hell happened:)?

Trump doesn’t remind me of much anyone lol. Except maybe the director of my daughter’s school…she is always implying power so has trouble really talking normally with people. At parent’s night, she has very formal ways to talk with people and talks to them in such a way to seem like a BIG MOVER. She fails to be courteous by missing the tone. She isn’t very conventional. She likes attention, and at parent night just talks for 3 hours, just don’t have any notion of parents leaving kids at home. There is always exquisite catering because that’s just another big move for her. Etc. But other times she forgets it’s dinner time and keeps us there way beyond time. She is definitely not a square. She is intelligent but when in these public events comes across a little strange like definitely not so intelligent with PEOPLE.
Maybe she is estj. But she is quite terrifying really because she is unpredictable.

Estjs seem more predictable than entjs? Entjs are more fluid and adapting?

So now you have me interested of what happens for an estj to lose that look of predictable. ‘Loose’ estj… interesting.


#4

I think that you describe him as “eathquakey” kind of implies a deep rigidity that is disrupted by mental imabalance or personal history (which may be clued in with astro history).
That is what estj are to me. Normally rigid, but he has a lot of leo influence with mars and uranus powering through at the same time if I remember correctly. This gives him a frictional personality, that extra bombast and narcissism and snappishness.

Trump was thrown into a military school for misbehaving, I think. But he thrived there and learned to be a big bully. It probably heightened his Se-id cravings. Se-id I imagine likes big shiny fast exciting stuff. Reactive. He goes there a lot. But he also does a lot of Si. Repetition of phrases, clinging to image, an earthy touch with common folk sense. I think that speaks a lot to people and they want to trust that kind of rhetoric. That he is kind of a more brazen estj makes him shinier and even more awe-inspiring to some folk.

Yet compare him to brazen examples of entj. Like a Gordan Ramsay or Simon Cowell. They are mean, they are electric and fiery, but their rigidity is more metallic, smooth. Not rocky like Trump. I think this quality marks a difference between the two types.
I think the Ni-aux presents a social ease. They can come off as very arrogant, but a cool biding arrogance that will cut hot if needed. But their rage is often exact in how it targets. They are interested in excellence and expertise, and insults against them are more met with an incredulous hot burst back, maybe like bullets ricocheting off sheet metal.

I think despite Trump’s own shiteating grins, insults bury deep. I think Blake once described angry ESTJs as hilarious because they were like blistering boulders. Just a big stupid eruption. Sounds like Trump, don’t it? It’s impressive in its display and it’s funny unless you are in the way or are collateral. Less precise, less aware of the implications.

I think some ESTJs are very unpredictable because they learn that being so is effective (Te), much like a tantruming kid might learn so, and it fulfills an Se craving of instant results, gratification, and dominance.
I think ENTJ with unpredictability are less primal in look than ESTJ. Perhaps they look a bit more like viruses gone wrong, consuming and destroying with a kind of precision that seems patterned despite the chaos. Maybe it is likely that ESTJ looks even more unpredictable and chaotic when they are unstable than ENTJ ever could.

These are all images coming to me, so I am not absolute about accuracy, but it feel right to me! haha


#5

Wow, this made me pause…
goose bumps.

This is very interesting. Oho. Too much fun. I think you made a really good point. Departure from rigid may look more tremulous in the estj. Entj isn’t really rigid. That actually makes a lot of sense.

But then overall…I struggle with estj for him. Lol. When he says the media is biased for example. That’s not an Si way of thinking. Yet, since you’re getting at the oddly emotional thing with him, yes, the emotional, immediate-reactionary thing, yeah maybe. He is an esntj.


#6

Hahah, well, what does he REALLY mean when he says “biased against him”. Maybe he means criticizing him at all. It’s probably triggering his Fi-inferiors and he’s lashing wherever. Though I do feel things like conspiracy fixation are a more Ni going wrong type of deal, but it’s like he’s unable to go into any depth with it, so maybe not quite Ni. It’s as if someone just sold him the idea and he’s just parroting it.

Well, what can you expect when he is fixated on getting his “legit” news from Breitbart and Infowars. Maybe this is what happens when Ni tries to really seed Si. Ridiculousness.


#7

By seed Si do you mean how Bannon played Trump all the way leading up?


#8

Yes, I think Bannon and maybe even trolls and other operatives might be just trying to feed his ego/impulses and directing him wherever to smash things up. Bannon does describe him as his “blunt object” to use as a tool. But is Trump going to admit to being used as a tool? Probably not. I am not sure his ego can sustain it.

Currently Trump is lashing out at the intelligence community in its entirety internationally (I suspect high INTJ concentration in there!!), so I don’t know what the end game may be because I think that is a fairly dangerous game for him. Perhaps some thought he was very useful for them to attain greater powers over information collection, but I do not know what will happen when they decide he is more trouble than he’s worth now that he’s “against” them “leaking” all his and his inner circle’s indiscretions.


#9

Trump says things like it didn’t rain on his inauguration day even though it did, as everyone plain knows. When I think of him as entj, I just think ugh. When I think of him as estj, I start feeling sorry for him, because it seems that to get to the point where you say it didn’t rain, that’s some ouchies you are feeling inside. It surprises me that an estj could spend so much time in interpretive speaking (even if it is a shallower kind). So I guess I always have doubts for estj.

Are you following Canadian politics as closely as US politics?


#10

Whatever made him the compulsive liar he is today to save his ego (probably his dad), he now has to take all the responsibility for as a leader, because that’s what being a leader is: owning everything.

Example for this culmination is this very, very ominous tweet: https://twitter.com/20committee/status/831872441597194241 (IC = intelligence community)

I kind of want to think about “each type and how they are going to handle jail” now haha.

Canadian politics is more boring and since the US is big brother neighbour, big news over there affects us here (like Trump threatening to tear up NAFTA and pull out of NATO–plus our media is heavily filled with US media so… lol). We’re just trying to hold down the fort, I think. The Liberal party is kind of just doing it’s thing and being middling about everything (progressive, but also recently dropped campaign promise for electoral reform to mixed reaction) while the biggest opposition parties are still in the process of choosing a leader after a kind of decimating loss a year ago. So things are a bit quiet on this front, and because we have Trump to compare Trudeau to, even if people want to criticize Trudeau on not being perfect, there’s that kind of relief that at least he’s not Trump and at least we’re not Britain right now…

We had that Quebec shooting where the guy shot up a Mosque because he was a white supremacist inspired by Trump and Le Penn, and then Fox News was a turd about it trying to say it was a Muslim attacker (it wasn’t. quebec-born white dude). That garbage infects us further and emboldens horrible people. Our conservative party politicians look at Trump and see “success” so guess what amazing strategy they will attempt? There have been some influxes of refugees from the US (fears of deportation back to countries they will certainly die in causing desperation to travel in below freezing weather), but it’s also triggering Canada’s own xenophobic reactions.
So I pay closer attention to the trends of the larger, older powers because Canada as a country often gets swept up in global struggles–usually ending up paired with the US. Plus you know… Canada is just more boring overall. lol


#11

my brain just imploded…there were so many questions, so many leads to pursue, so many doubts, so many variables…must be the Te inferior.


#12

So when Trump announced he was going to have a rally it reminded me of your post here. Then yesterday he implied that he got to where he’s at because of the way he handled the media. So he had this weird press conference yesterday…( I’m sure you’ve read about it) He’s basically applying what he thinks worked in the past! Reliving the campaign! Major Si alert! He’s been in inferior stressed out Fi so it’s been hard for me to gauge… but this kinda made me rethink the entj theory. @lunar still has a good argument as far as Trump being unpredictable. But actually he is starting to get a bit more predictable.


#13

am still thinking about it. because Trump is actually a very fascinating person whether you like him or not. (or maybe at least to me hee).

Prax totally has me wondering too…I started being very worried about falling into a new rabbit hole. Am trying to just call him esntj to not get sucked in. He would be like the most interesting estj example, it interests me no end…


#14

about his pressers and speeches…they often seem completely improvised… you don’t sense any preparation.

I still remember this speech he gave

so the fact that he is so free like that not sure what it really says, but it gives a bit of a non-meticulous leader appearance.
like obviously he has leadership skills but it seems at times SOO big picture (not necessarily deep) the way he leads, about the “gist”. like he comes into the white house as a complete outsider. he isn’t so clear how things work and he seems to just trust in his own leadership ability to put a system in place there for putting out orders etc. independence in a way. even if he is blundering quite a bit. but there is something instinctual about the way the man communicates and behaves.


#15

Even physically, I agree that Trump as he has aged has a thickness to him, for lack of a better description, a little like an estj.


#16

I am not fully convinced he is estj’s either. As far as the predictability aspect…what I mean is people are able to assume what he’ll say in a broad sense. He will always defend and make an excuse for the same controversial action he’s made. He will always mention the media. He will stick to his guns on anything. He will put himself on a pedestal and insult people. He will always make silly hand gestures.
You do bring up the same valid points that keep me in limbo too. I’m not as good at this typing stuff as all of you.


#17

Remember that he is possibly on drugs lol.

But if he is ESTJ, he is also old and is doing “well” with his Ne tertiary. He’s no superstar like an ENTP is with words, but he supposedly should have enough command over it to deflect, distract, and lie (to others and himself) like a champ.


#18

Yes, very true. He has said quite a few times “I am a man of my word”. After he passed several of his things through, he explained he was delivering on campaign promise.