Is ESTJ/ISTJ a trigger for INFJ


#1

Do Infjs get along with any ST type? Or are they perceived as being too ruthless or normal?


#2

Yes. My ESTJ boss sucks my soul.


#3

Yes, ESTJ and ISTJ will be the worst match for an INFJ (in any capacity) as a rule. ISTJ, in particular, is the enemy of INFJ. They are at cross purposes all the way through each other’s function stacks.

For the astrologically inclined, one could view the INFJ-ISTJ relationship as a square aspect, arguably the worst aspect in astrology. It’s like any two planets joined in a square aspect MUST go together, but they fucking hate each other and it causes dreadful pain to be joined in relationship this way.

The ESTP is INFJ’s exact opposite.

The ESTJ is INFJ’s absolute opposite (my terminology)

Again, for the astrologically inclined, the exact opposite of a type is similar to an opposition aspect. Exact opposites do attract, but they also repel. The best way to look at this relationship is that, in theory, it’s perfect compatibility. As a matter of fact, in Socionics, the Russian/Lithuanian take on Jung’s typology system, exact opposites are considered the ideal relationships because they have all the same valued functions except in the exact opposite order.

I buy that, theoretically at least. However, in reality, not so sure. I think these type of relations may be perfect for marriage compatibility, ie, in sharing living space and being a team. But, I don’t think there is much depth of relation. Probaly also a good match for partnerships of any kind because they both supplement the other where they are weak and so they can be a formidable team. They can also fight a lot. But, their fights tend to be out in the open and not closed and simmering resentment type fights. If these two can get off the ground at all. Socionics says that these type of relations can be the hardest to establish in the first place but once they are established they have the most potential to be the longest lasting and best over the long-term. I think there is something to that. I will say that I haven’t seen many INFJs with ESTP mates though. Maybe friends, but not mates.

And ISTP, the last of the ST types, is perhaps the most friendly with INFJ. It’s more a friend type relationship, not so charged in polarity as the ESTP-INFJ relationship.

For the astrologically inclined, this would be similar to a sextile aspect. Friendly and communicative.

O, I forgot to mention the astrology of the absolute opposite of INFJ, the ESTJ.

No aspect. These two don’t even know of the existence of the other. They have a complete otherness to each other.

If forced together for some reason, they will get on each other’s nerves fa sho. But, they don’t see each other at all. They don’t really conflict either. Not directly (like the ISTJ does with the INFJ). I think they are just really strange to each other. And irritating. And not worth troubling over.

Something like that.


INFJ description from EN(no Ti)P's perspective
#4

Thanks Blake! How would one recognise an ESTJ or ISTP? Are ST types perceived as too normal by an INFJ?

One of my best friends is definitely an ESTJ and our relationship dynamic is always teetering on hate - hate. I believe she doesn’t see the bigger more triumphant part of life and is far too content being ordinary in her relationships and career choices. It is definitely the one type that makes an infj feel ordinary which one would deeply resent.


#5

I don’t like STJs, at least in a working eviroment, or in any way we’re supossed to work together. They suck, I reciently did a project with an ESTJ and he exasperated the fucking hell out of me, he just got stuck in motherfucking stupid dumm details instead of solving problems. The same goes with ISTJs, they’re fucking obnoxious, too. Whatever, if you deal with them as friends, or in a friendly enviroment, they are ok, just ok. I like exasperating them, by the way, it’s pretty fun to slowly tear apart their fixed rules and thoughts. They care too much about things NFJs give zero fucks about. If you aren’t under their domain you’re just fine, if they are your bosses in any sort then you’re screwed.

With them there is one way to do things right, just one way, and, well, that may not be the best way, and it’s so fun to proove them wrong.


#6

I do like STJs in a working environment, but not much traction for friendship. Good work ethic and quality of work, friendly enough but minimal social chit-chat to annoy me. I’m fine with my ISTJ boss too, better for me than feelers who make accommodations for whiny millennials and office politics. Yeah, don’t think I am INFJ- crappy, contrived, but professional Fe is fine with me.


#7

Word.


#8

Oy, they’re all over the place. OK, ESTJ has a blocky build, squarish, kind of like a bull. ISTP is the quintessential athletic build, very normal all-American type. That’s for starters, but there can be a lot of variation on those themes. Both tend to be clean-cut. I don’t know how to describe them in a few sentences in such a way that it would be helpful to identify them. There’s too much room for error and subjectivity…and just, variation.

For example, a lot of the movie star ISTPs will have more of an ENFJ-ish variation which doesn’t make them typical specimens of the breed, ie not good for reference material of what is typical of the average person of this type.

Think the cop or soldier type. On average the military and police in general are of the ISTP type and mentality. At least, in America.

O, I forgot, America is the ISTP type! With some ENTP, and perhaps, ISTJ and ENFJ variations. But, the true heart of America is a very ISTP thing. The patriotism, bravery of the man of action, the good guy who makes something with his wits and his hands, the sweat of his brow, upstanding, righteous, principled, healthy, vanilla, rugged, free, independent, that sorta shit.

ESTJs are like the quintessential American football linebacker or something. Built for heavy impact, dense, strategic, dumb, blocky, square, bulldog, Santa Claus, brick wall, positive, supervisorial, crew cut on a bull dog face, lot of baby fat, phlegmatic but upbeat and productive, terse, no-nonsense, “get 'er done” type mentality, responsible, productive, boring, unimaginative, sometimes slightly funny, blustery, barking, unsympathetic, the judge, fair, impartial, weighing all the details…kind of a big ol bulldog type.

You know how bulldogs are often represented stereotypically as guarding their territory but they are always lazily lying about in front of their doghouse in the backyard sleeping. But, try getting past them. They’ll snap up in an instant and bark you out of the neighborhood. Sort of lazy and sluggish but tough and formidable. And dumb. Can’t get past that dumb dense aspect they have. But, they are very aware of territory, rules, and being the gatekeeper that they’ll be damned if you’ll get past…just because…well, this is mine (or my master’s and their master is often an institution or a corporation or some large body with a lot of rules and layers and history) and you can’t come in…without official paperwork and signatures and vetting and orders from the bureaucratic high command.

Meanwhile, they just sleep until duty calls. They make good guards.


#9

Haha dumb, unimaginative and stubborn, closed-minded. My ESTJ grandmother has an Aries sun, she likes to state her position about any given topic. To her that’s the true and because she’s the old one and the dominant one she’s right, even everybody else has proof of the contrary. She switches her arguments too, just to teach somebody else something, like if she’s the only one who knows about stuff, her oversimplified opinion.


#10

@Blake I’m not an expert or anything, but what you wrote about INFJ-ESTP & INFJ-ESTJ relationships, is it not vice versa as far as Socionics go?

http://www.socionics.com/rel/cnf.htm (INFJ-ESTP)
http://www.socionics.com/rel/dlt.htm (INFJ-ESTJ)


#11

In my experience, the only type I can universally say does not work with me (INFJ) is ESTJ. All of the other types, I can usually find one person of that type who I can get along with. But not ESTJs—they like me in abstract and I appreciate their ability to get things done and set boundaries. But once we start to get close (my sister is one), they get unnerved by me and feel betrayed (but you acted like you were this great NORMAL person and you ARENT!!).

I llike working with most ISTJs, primarily ones that are over 40. I appreciate their detail and attention to quality (my boss is one) and they don’t get scared by my strangeness (they just ignore it or something). They can be good teachers too. Relationship wise though, while I think they can make excellent partners, it feels like I’m suffocating or being put in a box. I don’t know how to describe it but I have tried and simply can’t force myself into a romantic relationship with them no matter how great they would be as a partner (objectively). I think I would have enjoyed having one for a father though (or maybe not…)


#12

As far as I know an INFJ in MBTI would equal an INFP in socionics, I think that introverts change their last letter in one system to another.

When it comes to ESTP and INFJ they both share the same prefered functions but in different order, that’s the positive side. When it comes about INFJ and ESTJ, they share none of the prefered fuctions and they have the traits almost completely opposite (which would be even worse, because one has a percieving dominant function and the other has a judging dominant function, to me that can cause problems in such relationships).


#13

Well that would make sense.

Yeah, I agree with what Blake said about ESTP and ESTJ vs. INFJ in the context of Myers-Briggs. Keeping those functional stacks in mind. My doubt was only how is it as far as Socionics go. Seeing what’s written in those links, I got confused a little (-:


#14

Yeah, in Socionics the INFJ is INFP and vice-versa. Socionics assigns J/P preference based on dominant function. Which is smarter. And a lot less confusing.


#15

@Blake Yes, I see it now. It’s really against my temper to ask for specifications like this without a deeper reasearch on my part, but this was an unusual situation. Synchronistic thing. It didn’t occur to me that INFp there might equal INFJ in MB. Which is lame, because you mentioned this very fact in the comments of your article ENTP vs. ENTJ and I remember reading it now.


#16

A very good and truthful depiction of relations between an INFJ and ESTJ, from the point of view of an INFJ: https://www.amazon.com/Concrete-Vintage-International-Thomas-Bernhard/dp/1400077575

“Although she had gone, I still felt the presence of my sister in every part of the house. It would be impossible to imagine a person more hostile to anything intellectual than my sister. The very thought of her robs me of my capacity for any intellectual activity, and she has always stifled at birth any intellectual projects I have had. She’s been gone a long time now, and yet she is still controlling me, I thought as I pressed my hands against the cold wall of the hall…It’s terrible: no sooner am I capable of a piece of intellectual work than my sister turns up and destroys it. It’s as if her sole aim in life were to destroy my intellectual work. It’s as if, living in Vienna, she could sense that I am about to embark on a subject here in Peiskam; and when I do, she turns up and destroys it. People exist for the sole purpose of tracking down the intellect and annihilating it. Sensing that somebody’s brain is on the point of some intellectual effort, they come along and stifle this intellectual effort at birth. And if it isn’t my wretched, malignant, deceitful sister, then it’s somebody else of her kind. How many essays have I begun, only to burn them because my sister has turned up, only to throw them in the stove the moment she’s appeared! No one is so fond of saying, I’m not disturbing you, am I? That’s rich coming from someone who’s always disturbed people and always will, whose sole mission in life seems to be to disturb, to disturb anything and everything and so destroy it and finally annihilate it, constantly to annihilate what to me is the most important thing in the world — a product of the mind. Even when we were children she would try at every opportunity to disturb me, to drive me out of my mental paradise, as I called it. If I had a book in my hands she would pursue me until I put it down. If, in fury, I threw it in her face, she was triumphant…”


#17

Ignas, it’s cool. I don’t expect anyone to remember something I wrote in the comments of some random article. But, thanks for your diligence and respect.


#18

Yeah, I could see from that excerpt you included above that an INFJ would see an ESTJ as very invasive and pestering as in like “What are you doing? What are you up to? Why are you doing that? Why aren’t you doing something else? Why ain’t you doing some busy work?”

An ESTJ might come and find you if you’re isolating and try to drag you out of it. It’s like it threatens them or something when people are being too much to themselves. Don’t seem right.


#19

When I worked for a government lab in the UK I once got assigned to a project managed by a senior ESTJ scientist. Fortunately, we already knew each other fairly well, as he had been the supervisor for my Masters project years before, but we still struggled to understand each other’s very different work styles.

For my part, it was being frequently summoned to his office to give progress updates. Started out once a day, but soon escalated to 2 or 3 times as his anxiety around the project increased exponentially. On one memorable occasion, my patience finally snapped after being summoned with the other project scientists for the 4th time in one day. Out of sheer frustration, I blurted out something like:

“I’m sorry to report that I’ve made next-to-no progress in the 90 minutes-or-so since you last summoned us to your office. Has it ever occurred to you that we’d achieve a lot more if we were actually allowed to work on the project instead of wasting all our time constantly explaining to you why we are getting absolutely nowhere??"

Luckily I remembered to laugh at the end of this little diatribe, and everyone treated it as if I’d been joking. It did the trick, however, as from that moment on the progress meetings became weekly instead of hourly…

To put things in perspective, it was an important and highly sensitive project, which was already massively overspent and overdue long before I was asked to join the working group.

In fact this is probably why I was brought in to help in the first place. I was never the first to be asked ‘cos my INFJ ways were utterly incomprehensible to the ESTJs and ISTJs who made up most of the senior management. But I also had a growing reputation for paradoxically being able to solve the most intractable and seemingly “unsolvable” of problems. Those thorny, tangled, torturous and most toxic of workplace dilemmas that defied all conventional approaches…


#20

I had been recommended to this project by my manager in the Forensic Drugs Team, an ENFJ with whom I had struck up a close friendship over the years. As an ENFJ, he was of course personally familiar with the mysterious ways of introverted intuition, and recognised that I had developed an unusually strong ability to tap into this strangest of psychological functions.

I was feeling particularly unhappy and stressed after confronting the ESTJ manager over the pointless “progress meetings”. I detest being pressured like that, and the sheer effort of speaking my mind always leaves me feeling utterly drained afterwards, even when I know it was necessary. But my ENFJ friend brought me out of my funk by tactfully sharing a recent conversation he’d had with the ESTJ project manager:

“I’ll never understand that Stewart! I just gave him another long list of experiments to perform, but as usual, instead of getting on and actually doing something, he’s spent the last 20 minutes sitting at his desk staring into space! I can practically guarantee that in a few minutes he’ll come and tell me why the experiments won’t work because we’re missing something fundamental about the scientific principles. He’ll try to explain his reasoning to me, but it’s a load of meaningless technobabble as far as I’m concerned!”

My friend countered with: “Just be patient and let him do his thing. I don’t always understand him either, but I’ve learned to trust his intuition in these matters. In my experience, he’s rarely wrong when he goes quiet and seems preoccupied…”