STELLAR MAZE DISCUSSION FORUM

it's true because it came to you


#1

When people talk about finding the truth, I say it’s easy as long as you confine truth to the subjective.

The truth for any given person is simple: It’s true because it came to you.

Anything that can reach you is true. In some way. In some day.

And no one can dispute another person’s truth by an appeal to the objective.

Objective truth may be an impossibility by definition.

Objective truth asks what it true apart from any given subject’s perception of it.

No one can know what is objectively true because as science tells us nothing can be proven true ultimately. But, any evidence to the contrary can disprove what is held to be objectively true at any time.

The opposite is true of subjective truth. It is true because it came to you. Nothing can take that away.

So, if you’re wondering if 2 + 2 = 5, yes, it does.

Or if you’re wondering if you’re suffering is valid even if you have lived a relatively easy life, yes, it is.

I have heard this one before. I’ve heard people try to talk other people out of their suffering because they shouldn’t have suffered by all reasonable measures.

A person has suffered if they believe they have suffered. Of what use is it to talk a person out of their truth?

Well, you shouldn’t have suffered.

Yes, but, nonetheless, I did.

Cars are airplanes. Birds are dogs. People are teeth.

All true if you feel this way.

Numbers are letters. Truth is lies.

Yep.

Trump is stupid. Trump is genius.

Uh-huh.

You see, subjective truth depends on the way you are structured, not in the way the objective world is structured.

It is of no use to confuse these two realities and truths. Something can be true for a person even if it is false for everyone else.

Though, you cannot in fact determine if it is false for everyone else because there will always be people that you can’t get to, either because of limited resources and energy on your part or because, in principle, there will always be someone you can’t get to who could later come along and agree with the person who was in the minority of minorities.

So, it is true because it came to you. If you are wondering whether something that has occupied your thoughts streams is true, yes, it is.

It is true. It is real. It hath existence of some sort.

Is it objectively true?

No.

But, probaly nothing is anyway, so, nothing to get hung about.

In order to know what is objectively true, we’d have to cease being subjects to know it.

And since people that cease to be subjects have a nasty habit of not returning to speak of the objective, we can only conclude that…

well, I don’t know that we can conclude anything.

Nonetheless, it stands open to consideration, just like everything else.


Is There a Right and Wrong?
Questions to INTJ
#2

This sounds like grappling with solipsism!


#3

Maybe these subjective truths help us to expose subjective lies that get us closer to an objective truth that we are capable of discovering… subjectively. Every truth discovered is a new lie to decode. #NiTilooping


#4

It does sound like solipsism. I believe there is a real world that we’re trying to understand. There is an objective truth that depends on fundamental physical constants. If 1+2+3=5, then 6 is no longer perfect and the structure of the universe has shifted. I don’t trust the truths of solipsism. [quote=“Blake, post:1, topic:214”]
Cars are airplanes. Birds are dogs. People are teeth.
[/quote]
Call them what you like, but there is an objective essence to these things. I can’t eat my car or fly away on a Golden Retriever, to think it possible is an error in perception, in judgement, perhaps an outright lie (but does the liar know)?

Suffering certainly had a subjective aspect, but I find a seed of corruption, a route to sidestep responsibility, ethics, and compassion in the view that it’s entirely so.


#5

Yes you can. Ever had a dream?


#6

Sure. Now that’s an interesting question. Do we create our own reality in dreams? Even in lucid dreams there is a chaotic, unpredictable element. Permutations of (collective?) unconsciousness deep beneath the thought-stream, random release of neurotransmitters, something else. Meanwhile in the waking state I can imagine my chair’s a butterfly yet I still stay sitting right on my ass.


#7

In art as well as dreams the impossible becomes possible. And the truth may be re-evaluated.


#8

So much of what we now consider objective truth, even the framework of our shared language, exists because a person had an impression or “intimation” of something that could only be expressed in metaphor long ago. And then it became “truth” through collective understanding.

Metaphor is how we make sense of reality.
I think it was Picasso who said “art is a lie that reveals the truth.” I’m sure I’m misquoting but too lazy to look that up


#9

@legit89 That is a great way to look at it! This is somewhat what I was trying to say in my comment above, but you express it much more clearly.


#10

thanks sammy! glad what i said made sense :smile:

i’ve been thinking about satire, and also pseudoscience…like how Gulliver’s Travels was meant to expose the truth of society at the time. and how Naked Lunch seems like this drug novel that barely makes sense, but it’s a sort of critique, or maybe a kind of celebration, of America’s ugliness. even the name “naked lunch” is about revealing something. It seems similar to how scientists used to get an idea of how something worked from observation, like Leeuwenhoek and his “animalcules” or the idea of the 4 humours, without having to meet the standard of empirical proof that is required now.


#11

As a forensic scientist, I’m often required to give verbal evidence in Court as an expert witness. Once I’ve taken my place in the witness box, the court bailiff asks me to take a bible in my right hand and swear that the evidence I’m about to give shall be “The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth”. I always reply “I do”.

It is what the Fe etiquette of the court expects, and is an honest response from the pragmatic perspective of Ni in a very broad and general sense. It would be churlish and pedantic and totally inappropriate to expand further upon how dismissive Ni truly feels about the abstract concept of “truth”. To paraphrase Lenore Thomson, for INJ’s, truth is not about logic or facts. It is merely a frame of reference, a way of organising information that serves one set of needs or another.

Somehow, I doubt the court would appreciate this accurate but subjective definition of truth, and I really, truly don’t want to piss off the court over petty semantics…


#12

It’s true because it came to me. And this thread is like an affirmation of my recent insight. I have suffered for several years from the fact that I didn’t tell truth to the person who had deserved it (deserved? indeed? Who said that?) At first I told myself that I protect this person. Then I decided that I protect myself. So I got lost in this labyrinth of self-accusations and moralizations. At least I decided that I have my subjective right for any (objective?) truth and this is what life is. Amen


#13

“Is your suffering valid even if you have lived a relatively easy life…”

This one can be so hard to answer yes to but then one wants permission to. Someone to say “it’s okay” etc


I think this might be one of the appeals of astrology to me. It isn’t just the events it’s some other shit. Helps you imagine something super intangible.

@johnonymous

That’s what I got out of it. Still a big forehead scratch at times though like there is too much mystery


#14

I find this post so beautiful.


#15

I’ve just found this among toys and suddenly geneva’s post came to my mind. Isn’t this an attempt to fly away with Golden Retriever?


That’s strange :grin:


#16

Maybe she will, it does seem like society is trending toward the subjective and nonsensical, but I choose to believe in objective reality and free will so that I can hold people accountable for their actions.


#17

Awesome thread. I love this meme with all my heart and I thought It belonged here:

“Or will you perish like a dog?” has me dying every time. Shoutout to Mickey.


#18

Yes, indeed, never trust chemicals to tell you that they are chemicals. Because chemicals be lying their asses off trying to fool you into thinking they know shit.


#19

Dumbass chemicals thinking they know stuff. Mickey on nihilism level 1,000,000.


#20

Is it true that I just posted in this thread? How can we have shared experience without truth?