Kiddie Chaos, when, why, who, and whatnot?


#1

This came about in the sex thread, but let’s begin again.
Have you jumped in? Are you good and soaked?
Do you want one, or… so? Or not?
Why, why not?
And absolutely anything to do with reproduction and the lives that follow, theirs and yours.

We were discussing the way you go about it, with plans and strategies or come what may?

I have four, two boys, two girls [twins] My boys are 20 and 18. My girls, 13. My first was not planned, but that is a story I’ll share a bit later.


#2

Quoted from other thread where I am asked aboots future kids:

2019 haha! probably before summer hits.
this is the year i have been telling all my friends and family for YEARS and they alsys pressure me to try to make it earlier or “but what if you have accident!!!” . like shutup. don’t tell me what to do.
let’s see how well my conception planning works out though! lol maybe i am barren and i don’t know. (when i was younger i somewhat “wished” to not be able to have kids so now we see how fate treats baby prax’s baby wishes.)

it’s just based on it being at the “deadline” of age 35 :smiley:
then i sort of planned my worklife and savings around that

do any of you guys do any of this kind of thing?
when i first told my friends, they all looked at me like i was crazy/sociopathic but… i didn’t understand… why should i just wing taking care of and raising a child, which is a huge responsibility and drain of resources (both mine and ecologically lol).
i like to think i can attempt to control what is in my range of control, and let what is uncontrollable pan out and deal with it as it comes. less stress than being overly controlling and less feelings of powerlessness than letting anything at everything happen TO me.

but it did take me a while to mellow out and accept which parts of life will be uncontrollable and unpredictable!

Anyway, I think I’d like to just experience childbirth once, so I want my ovaries to to help me produce fraternal twins; a girl and a boy.
I am also open for possible adoption to keep my birth count to one, but my side of the family is all dumb about blood being important or something… but I’ll probably just do as I want anyway. lol


#3

Was trying to copy this when I got more error, so thanks!
Blood is cheaper than adoption if you can manage, I think it is why most who can, go that route. I was never opposed to adoption, but was poor, and fortunately my body obliged. I hope you have twins too. Though it is considerably more challenging than one at a time.
Siblings are a gift, that is what my mom always said. I have a sister and brother and I agree.


#5

No kids for me, thank you. I have cats. And besides, I’m an ENFJ. I care more about my career and sexual attention from men. I can’t do that with kids. I used to want kids. But now I realize it will not happen in this lifetime, so I’ve buried that idea in the backyard next to good sex. Today is just one of those days, so you might find me a little more unfiltered than usual.


#6

Lol. I want to post a pic of my cat teehee. I will spare everyone though. He just had a bath and he is fluFFFFy between his chin and belly.


#7

Don’t spare me, Suzie Q. That’s what I will call you now. I don’t like lunar. Blah. You are now, Suzie Q. Like that awesome Creedence song.

For realz, I want to see your kitty. You show me yours, and I’ll show you mine.


#8

I had a phase when I was 19-20 when I really wanted to be a mom… take care of every single need of a baby of my own…

I realised that phase was me trying to get over someone by finding the one thing which is completely dependent on me…

On further analysis, I realised that I don’t have natural maternal instincts… I’m kinda awkward around kids aged 2 - 12… but I’m fuckin amaaazing with teenagers… I LOVE teenagers… so defiantly pliable! So… it’s kinda nice that my sister is way younger than me… I love taking care of her and her friends… though she’s not going to be a teenager anymore by the end of this year…

So… my own kids, I don’t know… probably not… most probably not… cause I don’t want to fuck up some kid’s life… I mean, my parents are really decent and nice people, but they fucked us up and they didn’t even realise what they were doing wrong… the problem is, it’s so hard to figure out how a kid needs you to love them and you might be the most loving and generous parents in the world, the way you wished your parents had been, but the kid might need you to be someone else and then they get fucked up anyway from no conscious fault of your own :stuck_out_tongue:

Those of you with kids, I’m glad you know there are things like personality types and astrology… cause I think such awareness makes for more empathetic parents… I’m sure your kids have grown up/will grow up in more understanding and accepting households… :slight_smile:

I NEED to see this!!

And this!!

What is it with ENFJs and pussycats though?? Every single one I know has one!


#9

It’s the pussycats who have ME!


#10

Alright, do infps fear not being able to take things back? Probably? …I feel uncomfortable posting yet compelled to do so. There is so much that I am not saying and it can still be like pinball machine inside. Then when it comes out due to compulsion I guess then I get embarrassed. What is the compulsion? In this thread every post stirs up so much. Nothing is hanging together.
Cat pic on its way…lol.
About kids, when I was younger I went through phase of thinking my parents fucked us up. I even talked to someone about it. Then I had aYEAR, a huge turning point in my life, where I said FUCK that. Everyone fucks everyone up. Oddly liberating if you want to have kids. I just forgave my parents everything. I just wish I hadn’t done it by first having a freak explosion towards my parents…my intj dad was quite taken aback.
I was blessed with very decent parents bless them. After that, they just don’t affect me as deeply anymore. There have been episodes where I couldn’t believe what my mother would say to me but it just couldn’t really bother me anymore because I saw it as coming from her not me etc.
Then I had kids and I was like oh yes indeed…I understand my parents. Etc. So um yes, it is scary.
But I try to remember that my parents didn’t manage to fuck me up in a sense…wise words were spoken to me by a wise lady. Do “good enough”. I repeat it to myself when full of doubt and guilt.


#11

If people are born as programs that are gonna run no matter what, then stepping back, it is as if parent child tragedy is inevitable unless the programs run well together or something. Because I think that even if you understand how someone works you still may not really click and that isn’t gonna stay hidden. Kids know everything! You know how they say parents have favorites etc. That kind of tragedy. This offends me the idea of having a favorite child! Dunno.


#12

@TinyYellowTree yeah! i have siblings and love them! we’re very good with each other. but i also know of families with siblings that are very distant form each other, and they all more… “use” one another from time to time otherwise. i guess it’s more dependent on what kind of family atmosphere you try to foster and build an example of for them to learn reciprocal love/affection/support. i got to be the eldest sister, so helping and corralling my my F-type siblings was a good learning experience. probably gave me a compassion skill boost!

@lunar it’s ok to spill lunar! I got my undegrad degree in psych. ;D I don’t think you have much to be embarrassed about–at least not so much in comparison to some of us or even me… hahah! allow erika or i to take on the zany forefronts! i think it’s all about delivery anyway. I think half of what i say is actually a bit nuts/abnormal, but since it sounds like i say it so matter-of-factly, people tentatively accept it as sound (or interesting). lol

I have a soft spot for babies/kids and animals! I guess I enjoy the simplicity and also the inherent potential before all the blocks and chains and even self-constraints come upon them. I’m not sure I am a particularly nurturing or maternal person, but I guess I have a dutiful vein in my body somewhere.

Look, my current animele babies! chinchillas! (all you guys so slow! all talk, no show!) Their names are Lady Sprinkles (white) and Dame Confetti (grey) – but then I found out a year or more later that they are actually male… BUT THE NAMES ARE STAYING SO TOO BAD, BABIES!


I love cats and hope to get one in the future–and a dog (husband is a dog person), but I am allergic to both… but I think I want to endure it for the sake of owning animals. Apparently 6th house saturn tribulations can also be mitigated a bit by venting it onto caretaking small animals/pets, so good thing I already have affinity! lol

@piggie I think the general idea is that kids are pretty resilient. You do your best to instill your values into them, teach them how to navigate, but they will ultimately be the ones navigating in the end. I am sure if my kids end up being anything like me, they will cause me a lot of grief from being curious and getting into things and places I don’t want them to be. What can you do but do what you can. :upside_down:

I think INFJ are in a good position to have insight to the true personalities of their kids though, and even if their kids won’t “get” them back, the INFJ will get their kids. Now, whether you want to use that power to nurture or to manipulate is in your hands!!!


#13

Yeah, we had better forgive them, since it is we that will need forgiving next. Yes. And my parents are also very decent human beings who did their best and looking back, I commend them on their efforts and openminded natures.
Try as we might, it is so fucking hard some days and impossible to get everything just right. You are going to fail in some things. Maybe not like ‘broken’ fail, but ‘barely satisfactory’. And then there are places we shine. Nobody can do everything right or perfect, being all the best of each type, though I think somehow I should be, just isn’t going to happen. It is where we can admire other peoples skills and assets.
I suck so bad at domestic. I am overwhelmed. I just can’t keep up and I give up because it takes more to maintain a tidy house than I can muster every day and it is not like I am not busy tending to this that and the other. And if you’ve ever had kids, getting them to help is just that much more work stacked on top. The beautiful excuses, the ones I employed as a kid…And if you are already behind the curve on your own discipline… but so far my boys did somehow catch a little clue, at about 16-17. Still waiting on the girls.
But I do have guilt. Oh my gods. Even with my kids being good kind beings, even with them fed and clothed and taken on trips and taxied to their social lives, still I feel so much like I am not enough, not near enough to go around and absolutely still just my own struggling mess trying to raise a family with thankfully, a very devoted dad/husband, without whom I’d have floundered long ago.
Add all that to ghosting and hermiting and social exhaustion. I think I’ve written enough for the moment. I need a rest. I need a lot of rests. A very long one. That I will get when they grow up, maybe, but I am not actually in a rush for that.


#14

Every time someone admits to struggling with the daily shit and child rearing, I think it is a good thing. Because there ARE some very loud people who are so very excellent and well they can be so loud. It is like a show and for some reason what is the most visible. I think the domestic stuff can feel like death (I know it is very dramatic to say that). I know I have some ability in that area and despite that it is really a drain. But I know it can be even harder for some. Like breakdown level.


#15

Do any of you remember when I lamented a lot about how nice having a maid would be? lol
That is the solution. Become bougie enough to hire a maid and lift your burdens, gain some domestic respite!

My mother (who I think is ISFJ) in contrast to me is very domestic and clean and just does chores and caretaking tyeps of things (like making me food even if she negs me to lose weight) almost all day as a way to keep productive and is always nagging at me about how bad I am and why I couldn’t take after her… … but then she continues to do my chores and give me fruit so I just let her. ‘v’

Then I told her I’m just going to hire a maid… or I can just hire her to clean my place. How nice daughter I am! Hahah!


#16

Prax, Okee last post today :flushed: If there is no error message here is the cat. “All talk no show” Lol Teeheehee. So funny. See the fluff. Omg I cannot believe I am posting a pic of a cat.


#17

i love him!!! and like you more as a result of owning a cute cat :smiley:


#18

Yeah, I have broken down, on several occasions. I’ve cried folding socks and yeah, it feels like death. Mostly it is merely a refusal to comply though, to push myself to do that which is just going to change in time. We used to have so many toys in the living spaces you had to kick a path. No longer. Now it is chip bags and half empty glasses and clothes/shoes everywhere. Things set down and rarely put away.
Tidying is tedious.


#19

@Prax and @lunar, I love your fur babies!!! They are so precious! I love animals. Such an unspoken understanding. I have four fur babies.

Jinx: Female black cat we got on Friday the 13th a few years back. The shelter named her Isis, but we changed it. Nicknames: G, Baby G, and Pepper-foot (because she has one paw that is speckled a little).

Joe: Orange tabby. He’s kind of crazy. He likes to chase the girls, so we call that “running the bitches”. “What’s Joe doing?” “Runnin’ the bitches.” “Oh, okay.” He is the ruler of the household. He rules by fear. We had an old ruler that died a few years ago and his ruling technique was a bit different. The cats loved him. Pure respect. His name was Cosmo. Nicknames: Mr. Joe (prounounced: Missa Joe).

Pep: Joe’s brother. He is faaaaat. I think he has an emotional eating problem. I feel so bad for him because he can’t lick his own ass. We get him groomed for this reason. I named him. We picked Pep and Joe up at a farm. A sign read, “Free Kittens”. How the hell am I supposed to keep on driving?! I decided on Pep because he had pep! Once he got in the car to come home, he wouldn’t sit still and kept meowing. We later found out, he just had to take a shit. Ha! Nicknames: Peppy pep boy, Pepperoni, Pepster

Katie: Katie is my favorite. We have an “understanding”. She used to be involved with the late great ruler Cosmo. They had a large age gap, but loved each other very much. Maybe that’s why I gravitate towards her; she’s into older dudes too! We got her from a foster family with her sister Sadie. Sadie unfortunately passed away last year. It was the most devastating thing I’ve experienced. I came home from work and she was dead on the floor. Katie was very distraught too. I kept poking her hoping she would wake. I cried and screamed. And grabbed a bottle of wine…I had a moment of “Fuck the world and everyone in it. Humans suck. Look at the shit we do, and there are little beautiful angles like this walking the Earth that leave unexpectedly.” I wanted to drop out of school and just volunteer at animal shelters. ANYWAYS, Katie is my girl. She doesn’t have her man or her sister anymore. She gets very needy at times. She’ll go upstairs and just meow and meow - like she’s looking for someone. She gets what we call “time”. She curls up in our arms and we have to tell her she’s good, and then she’s fine. Nicknames: Baby and Good girl. Below you’ll find a few pics of her. There’s one that’s blurry, but I had to share because she’s talking.


#20

There is something in this line that captures the death of all of it as I experience it. It’s the simultaneous awareness that what is needed is technically doable, and that I’m not willing to do it. If only I were still able to believe that what other people need is something I could deliver without dying! If I could still have that certainty about myself being a basically good person! But no, I now know too many true things about myself. That’s what sucks so much about Parenting. That’s the death part. The death of ideas about myself that I’d never even known were just ideas. The fact that every time I think back to every movie I’ve ever seen with the absent father, or every time I hear someone describe how such and such kid’s dad is out of their life – that this weird type of guy who I couldn’t imagine existing (who does that?!?), the guy whose story never really gets told on the show (he shows up on a motorcycle, which, I’d fucking have if I didn’t sell it for an engagement ring), the dude who doesn’t really try to win the kids over when they are like “why dad, why are you such a dick?” he’s just like, “eh, kids, eh, I do actually care about you, and maybe you’ll understand that some day.” He means Maybe they’ll understand it when they realize they are shitty people too after they have kids. Anyway, the death is realizing that guy is the one I look up to, the one who is like me but less passive and stupid and less afraid of taking proper action for himself. That the happy ending to all of these movies is the one that follows that character, which we don’t see. The one where he’s drinking a beer and reading fucking philosophy in his ‘lonely’ apartment while the credits roll, thinking “that kinda sucked today letting down the kids again, and this book is rather great.”

I had a breakdown in like my top 5 breakdowns in the past couple years this morning just trying to get my Autistic kid into the minivan for the 45 minute drive to the Autistic kid school while the twin sister was trying to tell me something very uninteresting about shit I don’t care about and don’t want to ever care about and don’t think I can mentally handle knowing that some people, even 4-almost-5-year-olds care about*, and I just set twin A down and walked over to the wall and put my forehead into it and like, wanted to smash my face into it, but I know that would be misunderstood and would cause fear, which I really don’t want at all. Then I screamed something like “This fucking life” and spread my arms up on the wall like spread eagle. Then my wife sprung into action as she’s energized by when I yell at walls, which I resent in her, since I can’t ever get what I want by asking, I have to act like her Italian family. She responds really well to the kind of shit that makes me curl up in a ball. Total number of times I’ve heard my parents yell: zero. Argue: one half of a time, maybe. Be frustrated with one another while the other wasn’t present and say something to me about it, twice. I think that’s my biggest problem, is my parents literally had what I see as a perfect marriage. Fucking Perfect. They were perfect parents. Totally unconditionally loving, with zero smothering. But it must have all been a weird mormon Facade, right? I figured it would sour somehow, but when I left the Mormon church it was like, one argument till 2 in the morning with my dad (and only when I told them I was moving in with my girlfriend), which ended a little tense and then, goodnight, we have a handball court at 7am, see you in 5 hours. A decade+ later and 5 of 8 kids are out of the church and we all still get along wonderfully, mostly via our family Slack group. Meanwhile, for my wife, she thought her parents were the worst, totally dysfunctional, violent, etc. But now she always tells me she feels like a total fool for thinking they were so bad, because she feels she is so much worse. She feels really foolish for the things she wrote during grad school in a creative writing program, she told me yesterday. The things you hear yourself say to your kids, it’s fucking mindblowing. What’s especially mindblowing is that you totally mean them. You apologize to your kids for yelling and you say everyone makes mistakes, see, I made a big mistake and yelled something mean when I was feeling angry. “Yeah daddy, you had a problem, a big problem.” Yeah I did, and the problem was, I accidentally said what I think, which I’m prone to doing when angry.

But I think two things are important for folks considering kids:

  1. My wife and I are a totally challenging match for one another in some really surprising ways. I have been divorced before, but that wasn’t because we didn’t get along. It was just because I suddenly didn’t have it in me continue along a road toward slow suicide with a struggling anorexic aspie though I still loved her (57 lbs and five foot 4 when I left, and in and out of the hospital constantly, and it was sort of like “I can’t watch you die anymore”). So that was like giving up on a child really. Something I’m basically good at, I know. But no one in my life has ever baffled me like my current wife. I really do love her, and care about her. But I can’t stand who she wants me to be and she can’t stand who I am. I’m like, not going to ever be what she needs at all, and I can’t relate to what she needs from me. What she wants from me is shocking to me, considering how nontraditional I thought she was when we met. The vestigial assumptions of growing up conservative Mormon: I figured if you’re pro gay marriage and have premarital sex you must be liberally minded. My 5 sisters and mom were all not like her, nor was my ex wife. Possibly every one in that list was on the autistic spectrum though, or at least somewhat non-feminine. My wife is an Italian woman who reacts to most scenes in the Sopranos with “see, do you get it now?” like, do you now understand the superior way of living that is here represented?

  2. I kind of think having an autistic kid is one of the hardest possible things, at least for the age 2-5 range. We shall see moving forward. He’s just a violent little ball of fire who will absolutely die to do what he wants in any moment, and will kill you if he has to for those purposes. It’s not manipulation, it’s like, 1/0 decision making. It’s power and force and the strength of committal. He steps off the cliff and you get to decide whether to break the fall with your body; and that’s your only choice as a parent when he does that. Break fall or no?

But between the two things, I think a functional couple with an autistic kid is going to fare better than a dysfunctional couple with neurotypical kids.

I would advise against wishing for twins in general though. And I would recommend you spend much more energy on the partnership question (who, when, why you are marrying or otherwise making a family with and for how long) than whether/when to have kids. My wife and I have had maids and nannies and house managers and shit tons of help, but it can’t overcome our central issues.

*edit to add: my 4-almost-5-year-old girl was pestering me about how I stayed up too late because she came out from her room at 9:30 pm and I was still up. At 8 am the first thing she says is “dad did you stay up all night??” and for the next thirty minutes she’d told me like 10 times about how I needed to get more sleep and take care of my body or I’d be tired. It’s insulting to my take on the human condition for something like that to matter. and it’s doubly insulting to know that it can’t possibly be true in her mind that it’s worth being exhausted to write, which is what I did till 2:30 am or so. I think this is N/S conflict and its the same type of conflict between my wife and I. Both of us seeing each other’s view of the world as not surprising but insulting to what we feel it means to be human. I want my little girl doing more meaningful stuff with her brain. Meanwhile, check in on the autistic boy at 1 am and he’s as likely to be staring at the ceiling, grinning, as anything else. I get that kid, he’s comprehensible. But still overwhelming.


#21

Even though my big family can be a headache, I surprisingly would like to have 5 kids.

I haven’t had any children yet. It’s not something I am seeking to do anytime soon. I’m not engaged in any sexual affairs either, so I don’t have to worry about any little ones coming unexpectedly. I think I would probably be ready to have children in a decades time.

I would like to have children when my gut tells me so and when I have made sure I am in a position to provide what a child needs. Even if everything is ready when they are a child, I also feel like I need to be able to secure myself in a certain position so that I can make a long term investment and commitment to them and their needs. I wouldn’t feel right having a child if this is not the situation. So yeah, because of that, I sometimes think I may not have children. But alas, there are greater tragedies in the world.

Why do I want children? That’s an interesting question! I never have considered the why of it. I suppose mainly for biological and sentimental reasons. Women are expected to have children because we can, and I have never felt any contention with this idea. I can be self-motivated and self-concerned, but I was always confident in my ability to set myself aside and let a child’s needs have more priority. I am a caring person, so I guess I would prefer to pour that energy into a child versus a greedy and unappreciative adult (lol now it would be tragic if my children became like this towards me). Plus my body is wired to have children, so I would like to experience that in which I am biologically able to do.

Onto the sentimental reasons. Haha, well babies are quite cute aren’t they? No, but it’s deeper than that. I think it helps measure yourself, you know? Instilling values into someone, caring for them and teaching them to care for themselves, sheltering them from the pains of the world until you realize that they must go on and experience the joy and pains of life, just like you have. I would like to do that for someone. Give them the things I didn’t have as a child. Hm, I could go and on, but I guess seeing a part of me and my lover live on in someone else seems incredibly important to me.

And then of course my lineage must live on to continue my plans of world domination. MUAHAHAHA!