I for one don’t think you have shit to apologize for. Then again, I’m the one who likely comes across all ragey, so maybe I’m not the best judge, ha. But I think I can cause people to amp up with all my foul-mouthed passion. And you seriously didn’t say anything rude or presumptuous in my opinion. So stop all that nonsense, Dr. schlops.
Yeah, Schlops, please don’t. Really. I need this and I need people like you to call out my Fi. I was looking back to the beginning of the thread and I think it all started from your first post when you said this was getting in the way of what’s more important. When Fi is triggered I doubt careful wording is going to change anything. It needs to cool off on its own. But I’m extremely grateful that we can have these interactions, please don’t feel guilty about anything! I’d really hate to think people are tiptoeing around me not to hurt my feelings! Jesus, please don’t do that! I really really really mean it!
I know you always need to make all these disclaimers, but I don’t think anyone here is acknowledging you being right just because something came from you. Hopefully that makes sense. I’m in awe with your responses not because I feel silenced or intimidated by Ti or anything, but you hit me with the truth and it all falls into place. I need that. I love that.
I get what you’re saying about feeling like sacrificing quality in order to be get more ideas out. I think it’s a fair price to pay (Fe over Ti) and all that. Otherwise we’re back at perfectly crafted bottles thrown in the ocean. Or not writing anything at all. I know it’s painful (I also had to sacrifice caring about English for the sake of communication/connection), but I think it’s worth it. I find it miraculous that we’re able to let go like that as introverts, even more so for a J like you.
Basically, it doesn’t have to be perfect, it will become perfected in the process! I find it refreshing that we’re able to talk freely with each other! You’re not arrogant! Please keep doing what you’re doing! I mean, when you come back.
(edit: rereading your post and my response with my awaken mind, I feel like I’m slightly off-centre, reacting to something derived from what you said, but not exactly to your points. But I remember feeling very compelled to tell you all these things that I’ve been meaning to say for some time, so maybe it felt like a good opportunity. Here I’ll let it be, raw as it is, with typos and all.)
I know you are gone for now but I of course want to concentrate on this rather than my own work! I’ll reply and we can continue later.
No, not exactly analogous. A metaphor for the function of each subtype.
Lol I see we agree.
I’ve been thinking of Sun as ego, gravitational center of the self. The ego can expand as more unconscious material is integrated.
I feel this too. With my own, I feel like I can “turn it up” when needed, but I can’t ever intentionally turn it off. When it turns off, it kinda just falls off because it isn’t necessary/I’m comfortable/I’m asserting more forceful will by “shining” my sun type.
Thinking of rummy.
Yes, not equivalent, loosely analogous in functional role only. The role of the aux is to project outward (even if the function is introverted), and the rising type is a further layer of projection outward for the sun type as a whole.
He did. I remember being bold enough to suggest that the aux should be associated with venus, not with the ascendant, and got schooled. He used the same explanation, that the rising sign shows the path of the sun through life, which is what the aux guides. The aux is more complex than just that tho, so not a perfect analogy. I did feel vindicated when he later said I was correct in assigning some venusian qualities to the aux, as a peculiar magic.
Oh yeah, which is what makes this all so wonderful and complicated.
Gonna use myself as an example here and just assume I’m typed correctly as INTJ sun/INFP rising. I often play up the INFP when I need to interact socially, as a wolf in sheep’s clothing type move. People can find me off-putting, too arrogant and forceful. Playing up the INFP “look at me I’m so little and cute I need your help” is protective, gets people to trust me and shelters me from rejection that often comes from shining too bright. This is again an caricature of INFP, hope no INFPs are taking too personally.
Yes, this is a good point and I agree. Like the moon is what is activated by stress first, and can potentially overwhelm the sun and cause it to go dark other than the id/inferior. The rising type then takes over to compensate/function, but often just behaves like a stressed version of that type overlaying the sun type. This of course nuanced depending on the degree of stress and nature of the situation to be met.
Superego echo is a good way to put it. Overcompensation as a way to manage a stressful situation. Usually counterproductive and can feed into more inferior grip.
PolR is something I’m only loosely familiar with, stands for point of least resistance. I understand it as a blind spot, something easily missed but that needs to be checked for optimal functioning. Often it’s projected outward. In superego development, the goal is first to recognize the need to take responsibility for it, then internalize the capacity to manipulate it while at the same time acknowledging the capacity for mastery of that manipulation is very limited. It also is a sensitive spot, easy to hurt a person in, which is why it is so easily projected.
I think this is a misunderstanding due to me being imprecise with words. The moon and rising types are both “fused” meaning they are not easily manipulated. The way the rising type is fused is static, mechanical. “mood” is a typo which should read “moon”, which is an archetype with great depth. The way the moon is fused is nonlinear enmeshment, functions bleeding into one another. The moon is interestingly the most whole in that it has the most complete enmeshment, but also the most fragmentary. I meant to get at this in talking about expression of phase states but my brain jumped forward. That whole part could be explained better.
I just have a personal problem with fixating on this. Ti id probs. Though lately I’ve been wondering if maybe my sun or rising is actually INTP. Dunno, its hard to think I could be a Ti dom cause I find it so grating and tedious a lot of the time.
This was my thinking too, and I still think it may be right, like moon is mostly id/dom with a dose of aux just so there is way of outputting. I almost wrote this in the “functional circuitry” I elaborated on. But then I started thinking, can a moon type experience tert temptation? I think it absolutely can! And if it can, can it also experience grip? So Probably yes. So I stopped myself, and just wrote “strange fusion”. But yeah, when falling into the background (new moon state) it is probably an id/dom embryo.
Yes, maybe this is a better way to think about it. I was wondering if the aux function of the rising type might be super prominent as that is the “final door”. Mr non was talking about layers of color filters which i thought was a good analogy, this would be the filter on the top of the pile. Like for you, really strong focused Ni. For me, goofy speculative Ne despite not really having Ne elsewhere.
I like this synthesis very much, don’t think it sounds dumb at all.
I want the simplified version to be true so much, but it just isn’t. Which is good, it would kill eros.
This is better, more specific. By augmenting I only mean it alters the perception of with due to filtration.
#same. I love it, I love getting down into the details.
Yes, two separate ids! What I was trying to get at is the moon type is similar to the id function in that it is related to needs and instincts, and connected to it in that it (mostly) passes through the id of the sun to manifest, but also is slippery and doesn’t have to, can ooze around.
I think schlops said it somewhere too but your moon type being close to your tertiary makes sense with the dom of your moon being in the tert position for the sun.
Maybe this is one of the ways the moon is able to ooze around and not have to always pass through the id of the sun type, it can also pass through the function that matches it’s own id or dom? For you that would be Sun dominant and tertiary functions. Or maybe it will just show up through the sun with whatever function is activated. Like if the moon falls into tertiary temptation, for you Si, then the Si of your sun would become overactive, (demon or role function for you, which could cause distress).
I might be INTJ, you can add me to your sample size for now.
I have this problem too. It was really bad when I was younger. I just take information at face value and have trouble understanding why people, at least at an sun/rising level (my moon lies sometimes). I became very skeptical as a reaction to being gullible, and spent a lot of time both learning to read body language in a systematic way and also to trust my intuitive bullshit meter.
I literally lolled when I saw this. SUCH a familiar feeling.
I realize I work a lot of hours and may never be able to respond if I don’t keep things short, so I wanted to say a quick thanks to everyone here for breaking this stuff down and sharing your thoughts. I wouldn’t touch this stuff with a 10 foot pole a couple months ago and now I feel like I actually know what my rising subtype and moon subtype is after binge reading this thread. I don’t know if it’s the most sensible or easy liaisons (and I’ve thought about this effectively all day!), but they seem the most true right now if I’m understanding everything correctly and was really able to apply this stuff to myself.
And so thusly, I see myself as INFP Sun, ISFP Moon, and INTJ Rising.
My thoughts on my moon type so far? Very bitchy, paranoid, and territorial (full offense? jk).
INTJ Rising has been keeping this operation going, SOMEHOW! A lot of compartmentalizing of ISFP Moon’s feelings and needs created a shitstorm in 2017 that I NEVER intend on repeating. Fuck no, I’ve got the T-shirt, the bobbleheads, and the goddamn photos, I’m good!
I don’t feel like I’ve perfectly integrated the needs and wants of ISFP Moon, but I know there’s a lot more acknowledgement and respect for those desires and a willingness to meet those things halfway than there was a couple years ago. I think INTJ Rising can get stuck in executing a particular vision and simply writing off or diminishing the things that don’t fit in that vision. Honestly, maybe tunnel vision is a more apt description. I was able to accomplish things here and there and taste a certain string of successes for a couple years that I’m grateful for, but those lunar needs have come more to the forefront and in the final analysis, can seemingly overcome years of effort in one cathartic and uncompromising moment. It’s awesome to behold and to have as an emotional experience, but definitely something to be avoided and prevented from happening again. Ahem, IF you survive that experience. That’s a task in and of itself.
And so I leave you with this thus far. I hope I can return soon to elaborate. Wonderful insights again everyone and I definitely enjoyed reading them! Your words do not fall on deaf ears!
oh my goodness!!! @JaMisa helllooooooo!!!
Made me laugh, and clarify that while I may not know for sure mine is ISTP, it is not ISFP, well unless it was showing quite different aspects. I am so not territorial. Uh, well not with other people.
Here you go.
HEEEY there !
I lurked while I was gone, but it’s good to be back!
Beautiful song! I came to love her a little bit before or after she was talked about her on the forum! Gorgeous vocals, I love the scrappy energy she has (I very much resonate).
I’m still digesting what the moon type feels like. I went through a crazy bit where I rearranged all the types in different positions and used various feelings of nausea to remember the right sequence again.
It’s kinda freaky, but the Maze is in my body now. I don’t even remember how I came to know this stuff anymore. I just know when I’m right and wrong based on my gut feeling. I started to actually go with my first impression and stick to it because it’s usually something there, even if I’m wrong. It’s weird to not be in my head so much, but the body has such a vital intelligence, I would be a fool to ignore it!
I like ISFP moon, but I’m still using it as a bit of a shorthand for now. There’s still some gaps in the theory. There’s this histrionic drama queen I have that insists on high maintenance and glamour. I’m like, is this ISFP? Maybe overly repressed ISFP moon at play? I feel the moon position has a lot of power that can come out in bursts, probably in moments of disintegration.
I keep using Ice Queen to describe my moon type, but I think there some glib and mania there that kind of confuses me about what I’m missing out on. I keep wondering what I’m like behind closed doors, or an intimate part of me that I would never show.
There’s this one moment I had that I think captures the chasm between my rising type and moon type. I was arguing with my Dad and thought the words, “I’m disappointed in you”. I could feel all the Scorpionic Fi digging into those words and giving them a depth and penetrating quality that captured the anger and pain I felt. It was like shades of one feeling being honed into one sentence. Like smoke spelling out words.
So when I said this, which is unusual because I usually tend to keep those hot or emotional thoughts to myself, I was surprised that I said these words in a monotone, small, and breathy voice (well, I was crying, so that’s the breathy). It was like the words were sterilized and cleaned of their plutonic quality and served out on an ice cold platter.
I keep thinking, what was that? INTJ Rising filtering ISFP Moon melodrama? It seems right, but there’s high feme drama queen I have that’s a smaller character, but is still needing to be worked into this moon type business. I’m gonna brush up on the ISFP articles and check Blake’s List when I get a chance. I think I may be confusing ISFP and ESTP a bit, I feel there’s a overlay there in my mind and a bit of ENFJ madness going on in the background.
I’m like, who are all of you wonderful people and how did you get here?! One theory at a time! One MBTI Moon Type at a time! I could comfortably write this all off as ISFP, but something isn’t sitting right with me about it. I don’t know if I’m wrong of if I just don’t have enough information to be comfortable with my assessment. Eh, Fi-Ni loop? BUT HOW AND WHY.
And so, I have work in a couple hours and have a few rabbit holes to go down in the meantime. Yippee for me!
But I like ISTP Moon for you, I think you have a call for the wilderness and the kind of calm and solitude only nature can provide. It makes me see a full moon in the wilderness. Owl hoots, wolf calls. Inner strength, deep roots, yes… I think there’s something there for the ISTP assessment!
P.S. - I am also loving all the moon talk! I keep stewing with info and watching what boils over. I think I’m getting the hang of it! Still out of my depth, but I’m gradually finding footing. WOOT!
When Tiny said istp moon, it’s weird I just saw the photo she had posted of herself on her bed and the story she wrote one time and shared on here. All that popped simultaneously. And then it stopped there.
Yes! I bet, and I hope I am recalling her name correctly, Geneva had some ISTP overlay going on as well. But so far, I feel like nature captures ISTP for me. The viciousness, order, but the nurturance that can be found there as well. Stillness. Depth as stillness. Yes, something about all that rings as ISTP and I feel like I’ve seen Tiny linked to nature in some way that would fit her moon type, or at least give some standing for ISTP as her moon type.
And I think something can be said about us being here for a few years together. We’ve probably showed a bit of our moon type in that time. I bet drama threads I’ve started and quickly deleted was my moon type coming out. Yikes!
But I like how you recall things! So far, getting back to gear in MBTI on the Maze has been a lot of gut feelings and a knowing without seeing the actual memory (which is actually pretty unusual for me). I can recall enough, but it’s like I’m refeeling old impressions and flickering memories and building on that. Very confounding! But a fun adventure nonetheless. I’ve missed you guys! And this MBTI madness lol.
Great, I’m back, with Vodka. French one that is, very mild, I’m quite surprised about it’s quality I have to say. One doesn’t really think of france when it comes to Vodka. The weekdays are way too busy in order for me to take the time and post here but now it’s the weekend and I can pull all-nighters again.
Hehe, hehehehehehe, heh - eh, whatever. To the replymobile!
Well, honestly it’s the same in german, though english certainly makes it a bit harder. I think I’m very similar to batshitty in this regard, I too became very sceptical of people. I know there are people out there who often don’t mean what they say. It’s the same thing when I call my friends motherfuckers or something, it’s not meant to be serious, it’s supposed to be funny. However for these reasons I can have a problem with this behaviour:
- There are actually people out there, who would feel insulted for a good reason (that they can provide) and I can feel the same way if it’s a very sensitive subject.
- I don’t really feel comfortable talking this way to people I don’t know for a long enough time, e.g. strangers. It feels too close and it’s easy overstepping boundaries.
- There are also people out there who make things seem like a joke, when in reality they are deadly serious. I consider these people highly manipulative and tend to avoid them.
This reminds me of a colleague of mine at work, she can be pretty blunt, e.g. when she’s like: “Dude, don’t be a pain in the ass.”. She could tell immediately by my facial expressions (yeah, I’m an open book when it comes to that) and my body language, that this was kind of unsettling for me, I just wasn’t sure what to make out of it. So she took the time and effort to tell me about her values and feelings about various things and now that I trust her more, I can tell that when she says things like that, she could be serious with what she says but certainly not how she says it. That made me trust her more because I know she actually values being a decent person and allthough I’m still not completly sure what to make of it, I feel more comfortable with it. Also I sometimes like it when women use some profanity in their language.
I see the same in you to some degree honestly, you take effort to correct all of your perceived ethic mistakes, whatever they actually are mistakes or not and I think that is a good quality about you! Still, you two are certainly not the same (personality-wise I mean) because for some reason you seem a lot more tense about it, to me atleast. Sometimes when I read your posts, I just get the feeling that you are trying too hard (to be correct and perfect perhaps?). Also I get the feeling that I really should do something about it, like this kind of urge just piles up. It’s like I want to shake you, hug you, tell you that you shouldn’t take everything and especially yourself so seriously, that you should get more lose, relax more, do something fun, maybe something that doesn’t involve work! Open your mind to something new! Haha, now that I think of it, I’d bet you’d be a very interesting person to show you this world of mine, the one that is inside of me. I’d probably get some very interesting commentary. Of course I know that we are not that close! However, the feeling is still there and I don’t know if loosening up would be good for you or not. Probably not, considering from what I’ve read you’re probably working on your doctoral thesis at the moment. Still, that feeling sometimes is there.
In germany we start learning english the first time in school when we are 9 - 10 years old. My father used to watch cartoon network (which was only avaible in english) and I have played a few foreign video games when I was young, so I’ve gotten used to it at a very young age. Aside from my school I’ve learned english by talking a lot to people from the US, from chatting with people from all over the world, english media (video games, tv series, etc.) and all the other little opportunities you have in life. Also english is very important in this modern day and age.
It almost feels to me like english is my second home and I have a gift for languages, heared it from a lot of different people (even though I’m too lazy too learn any new). This also makes a lot of sense considering that I’m a software developer and I’ve read about a study recently, that being good at programming correlates much more with being good with languages, than having a thing for math (so you can take the progamming language thing literally haha).
And still, I kind of feel trapped when I use it. It’s because it doesn’t match my german skills at all. My german is so much more refined, I have a lot more options, e.g. I can talk like I have a specific cultural background and all that stuff, all the social context is just lost (well, mostly) in english.
Feels like I’m a bird and english is my cage.
I can tell.
Yup, I said that as well. I guess all three of us are in agreement there? It’s probably the most obvious conclusion. I also think it helps that the id of my moon is the dom of my sun. It makes me wonder if it’s because of this combination that I have a hard time sometimes leaving a toxic environment. In a healthy environment both my sun and moon can shine, I’m also able to live on my own pretty well (with some good friends in my social sphere) but in toxic one I can get into various unhealthy loops. Thankfully I’ve had enough experience with that, so I choose my environment more carefully and have less trouble cutting my ties with people who are not good for me. How about you?
Ooof, it’s hard to tell, really. If I compare myself to other INTJs then I’m pretty sure my moon influences how my functions will manifest. I’m also pretty sure that I can consciously decide to let my rising or moon run the show (though for some reason it’s harder to engage the rising sign).
There is a way we can find out though, if you’re up for that. We could create a set of examples how each function should manifest and then compare our experiences and see if they match. I know this is probably not the best way to go about it because the quality of the data depends a lot on whether we can see ourselfes objectively or not but I believe there is no practical alternative to it at this point.
Interesting. Do you think it’s related to being an INTJ? Maybe having Fi at the tertiary position?
I too became sceptical. I have little trouble reading body language and facial expressions of most people intuitively but it’s not always helpful for me. For example I know some people that say sarcastic things with a very straight face and serious tone of voice. Also I’m not sure if I notice every little detail of peoples body language. So I instead choose to pay close attention to what people say and do, in order to figure out their internal workings and value system, which then helps me to decide if they’re actually serious or not.
Working with my life as an example, my current understanding of the moon (especially with reference to the astrological metaphor that describes moon as “who are already are” and sun as “who you are becoming”) is that moon type shows up in the psyche before puberty and after puberty the sun type instead gains prominence in the psyche.
Apologies, I try to make sure I am getting the source right but I can misattribute when I am scanning/working from memory rather than directly quoting.
I’m curious about this too. I’m still unsure of my moon type, so it’s hard for me to observe how the functional currents play out. I’ll have to go back and consider when I have all the parts correctly defined.
I have the opposite of you, INFP rising rather than moon. I do have some history of difficulty leaving toxic relationships, especially ones that are romantic in nature (whether they are love relationships or friendships), and consider myself a recovering codependent. There typically comes a point though where I am just gone, an irrevocable cut-off. Sometimes this happens internally before it happens externally. But also part of me remains obsessed with the relationship, despite knowing I am completely done with it. This obsession oscillates between extreme idealism and violent vengeful fantasies, sometimes quite rapidly. Not that the other person would ever know about it. I am much less emotive than I worry I am, thinking I am being very dramatic but actually displaying almost no affect.
I would be down to try, though it may be best to wait until I’ve worked out my moon type. I think this would be good practice for anyone here. Other potential problems would be variations in the development of the sun type and astrological influences, so maybe it is a fools errand. I’m always interested in an experiment. Even when they fail, I usually learn something.
Yeah, Fi tert/Fe superego, and Ti id. More Fe superego. On a logical level I understand why people lie, or even give false information as a form of cruel humor. But on some fundamental level, I can’t understand why anyone would want to speak anything other than the truth (as they understand it bc of course truth is subjective). Speaking the truth, and accepting the words of others as truth, is just the most efficient way to get at any kind of understanding or solution. Why waste time on poor information or shame-based conformity, etc. Wow I am sounding VERY Fi/Te. I mean I get the importance of Ti/Fe axis, but not the way it often plays out on a more banal social level.
I agree with this. I think the sun type is always there, but subservient to the moon type especially in young childhood. Looking back at myself, I can see sun type elements in how I behaved, but they were superficial and only deepened with age. I certainly don’t see my childhood self as a combination of the id/dom of my sun type, at least not at a deep level.
I want to relate power dynamics between the sun and moon types to the Saturn cycle, as Saturn is the overlord of linear time and sun/moon is the keeper of mundane time. Crisis would happen at ages 7-8 (first saturn square, first neural pruning, first full recognition the self as a separate entity from others), 14-15 (sun detanglement from moon/oppositional conflict), 22-23 (final brain maturation, grappling with the reality of the loss of childhood) and finally the sun taking full control around 29-30 (first saturn return). Periods of relative sun/moon harmony would occur around ages 9-10 and 19-20. This is just an idea I’m playing with, would be interested to hear if these time periods resonate with sun type/moon type conflict and growth for anyone.
This reminds me of the 5 ashrams of neurological development, I think it’s an eastern analog of a similar concept of neurological development, though it places neurological maturity around age 28-30, if I remember correctly.
For me, I’d punch it at these ages:
and the the rest is a mess with a lot of recency blurring my analysis, I’m only 26. I’ve also been called a premature mother fucker and the most immature old soul you ever met.