Ne, Ni, Ti, and Fe


#1

Hi guys. I still can’t quite parse the difference between Ne and Ni. And I’m a little stumped about low versus high examples of Fe and Ti.

There have been some great shares by some of you of your Ni insight moments and I appreciate your sharing. Can you expand possibly and say how those insights are different from a Ne insight? Do you feel like your insights are totally unrelated to what’s going on around you, or does something spur the insight to click into place, even if it’s indirect? Is a Ne insight “smaller”? Or what? I feel like I get insights all the time, but I can’t tell if they come from inside or outside or a mix…and isn’t it all a mix, anyway? Halp.

And high Ti…what do you mean? Is that a person who is super charismatic but also a logician or something?

And is Fe just charisma or is charisma just fluency in any area, harnessed with a certain kind of joy that is contagious?

If you’re willing to share anecdotes/examples illustrating what you mean I would be grateful. I’ve heard lots of abstract definitions of these things, but what do you guys thing these things are in actual life? What have you seen, in action, or experienced yourself?


#2

ESTP here!
I’ll try to use Ti to share what I know about Fe. first.

Fe.
cares about how others feel
good at expressing emotions
people oriented
aware of other’s emotions
rather social

so you can see that basically in ENFJ and ESFJ who have Fe as a driving function

for ISFJ and INFJ, it’s their auxiliary function so it doesn’t necessarily drive them.

for ESTP and ENTP, their tertiary, so something they like to do but not really excellent at.

for ISTP and INTP, obviously it’s hard to say they are “charismatic” although they CAN be. sometimes. rarely. hardly.
and not really good at detecting how people are feeling. almost seem like they don’t care.

Ti.
information.
research. (Ni also. But interlinked)
data.
knowledge.

so istp and intp both have this as a driving function

they can have intellectual arguments.
and usually calm about it. don’t have to raise their voice. they just raise a point.

where ESTP and ENTP can be loud when they argue/talk. And more aggressive. probably from Te id. I think.
but still smart.

and so on.

INFJ and ISFJ both have Fe-Ti
so they can be charismatic in their speech using Fe as auxiliary and Ti as tertiary.
like Obama (ISFJ) and other INFJs

ENFJ and ESFJ usually touch people’s hearts rather than brains.

Ni, I see it as interconnected links. coming to one focal point. Like telescope. zooming into one point and coming to a conclusion.
where Ne, like spider or a fly, scattered/multiple visions compared to a telescope. coming up with different ideas. also, expanding.
because extroversion goes OUT.
for Ni, introversion. it closes IN.

Ni is the definition of insight I’d say.
and Ne is definition of expansion.
i.e. Apple products. Steve Jobs. Ne.

Ni sees far. Ne sees multiple.
Ni is linear, connects points.
Ne is like when cells multiply, goes on and on.

Ni talks to draw a conclusion.
Ne rambles about everything that is “connected” but it goes into outer space.

Ni is like the solar system.
Ne is like the universe expanding from “big bang”

Ne thinks outside the box.
Ni gathers data from outer space to bring into a box/jar.

Ne creates random pattern
Ni sees the pattern.

Fe is charm, in a pure sense.
no hidden intentions. no ulterior motive.
Fe makes people feel good.

but Fe tends to forget to take care of themselves (emotionally) . people pleasers.
Fe Dom can come off ‘fake’, putting on a 'facade/mask’
these guys would rather put on a happy face than a sad face.

they say the clowns :clown_face: are always smiling to make people happy but really the saddest inside.

Ti is subjective logic. not black and white.
it’s rather shades of colors.
these logic and knowledge is not necessarily psychological.
Ni+Fe is psychological.
INFJ (Ni+Fe)(with tertiary Ti) probably the best psychologist
ENFJ (Fe+Ni) (with tertiary Se) probably the best psychiatrist.

ISTP (Ti+Se) use their knowledge to destroy+kill you. Or do other ‘cool’ things. maybe mechanics. handyman. Good with tools. true psychopaths if they went wrong in childhood.
INTP (Ti+Ne) use their knowledge to gather more data from other sources. Probably the best programmer.

low Fe. (istp intp)
they wouldn’t know what to do if someone is sad/crying/depressed.

low Ti.
dumb as fuck. haha just kidding. seriously joking.
they would rather interact with people than in the lab doing hardcore research. wouldn’t read about bunch of random stuff that doesn’t really matter. to them.

try talking to ENFJ or ESFJ about how everything is a wave.
color, sounds, temperature, all waves.
they would eventually get bored.

talk to istp or intp about waves. they either know more than you, or will suck your brains out.

relationship advice. ask ENFJ or ESFJ.
ask istp or intp about relationship advice. they might wonder ‘I’m the one who needs help…’

shall I go on?

I’ll stop here for now.
let me know if that clarifies anything!


#3

Thanks for the depthy response, @supernokturnal. I appreciate it.

But do you (or anyone) have real life examples of those things? I’ve read the theory and general descriptions, but I really want to understand through real life examples, even vague ones. How do these cognitive theories actualize when people are doing their people things? How do you effectively separate one function from another? They’re all mixed up, they have to be, so how do you confidently see one function as itself and not just as a flavor or by-product of another fuction?

Maybe I should start to show you what examples I was hoping to see more of. Dunno if they’re correctly correlated, though.

The story:
My sister seems to have really high Fe, maybe auxiliary. She’s all about relationships, especially in a networking sense. She’s always meeting people for coffee, constantly making time for people. When she’s there, she’s warm and chatty, but she also totally dominates the talking in this really soft way. She asks most of the questions, drives the conversation, but the other people always seem to feel heard and welcomed and special, like it’s all about them…which it is, on the surface. She flatters or compliments people a lot, and she loves to be flattered and complimented in return. She does like the interaction, but she also does it because it helps her. She doesn’t know how it will help her, but ultimately it always does–she gets free stuff, gets invited to parties, gets job offers, whatever. It’s nothing pre-meditated specifically, but she knows that being with people and warming them up will help her and maybe it’ll be fun and friendly, too.

So there. Is this high Fe? Or is it high Te with a good grasp of people skills? Te>Fe? Or something else?

Does anyone have similar stories showing Ne? Or INFJ stories demonstrating high Ti? (I feel like Ti is me, so the thought of “high” or “low” seems foreign. What does it act like as high or low to you? Do you consciously turn it on and off?)


#5

Hmm, well my response is literally from my own real life observations.
but since you’re an ENTP, I guess I must be more thorough.

this is Fe. not Te.

also Fe.

but yeah. you’ve described Fe in action.
but a person does not function on ONE function at a time, Hahaha.
so if you describe her more, I’ll get an idea who she is as a whole.

and you said Ti IS you. do you use it? or does it drive you?
are you driven to gather information on your own?
Ti dominant is introverted, so they tend to not really socialize with people or try to fish information by talking to people.

but Ne-Ti. is having to bounce ideas back and forth with people to refine their Ti. because Ti is something you use often. Ne is what drives you.
ENTP would rather talk to people and get a better understanding than just think on their own.


#6

@supernokturnal Ok sooo…I’m going to pretend that the jab at enfjs not wanting to do lab research and being dumb did not happen :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: also I question your assumption that Fe dom is social all the time…I have a resting bitch face and I don’t speak much. I actually hate the dance and charades involved in networking…

That being said @krissy your sister sounds like xsfj…because imo enfjs are not subtle in conversation and infjs would probably be against the whole sustained inauthenticity of it all…


#7

i was totally kidding! hahaha

do people tell you that you have that face?

if you were with amongst your friends, would your Fe show more?


#8

My mother told me I had RBF and then tried to emotionally wear me down into forcing my neutral expression into a slight smile because I had to be her ideal of femininity which I thought was too weak…needless to say it didn’t work and I still leave a pretty cold first impression on people because I’m not rainbows and unicorns at first glance :kissing_heart:

But yes with my friends I am more wild and weird…I can be very loud and goofy one moment and then very philosophical and quiet the next :smirk_cat: but I’d never feel comfortable for people to see that bubbly part of me if I didn’t know them too well…


#9

you know…interesting question on the Ti.

Easy answer first: i am not driven to socialize with others to process my ideas. in fact, i’m really secretive about my thinking. I like discussions of ideas, but i am guarded at the same time. And I like to ask questions if I’m learning (stellarmaze, e.g.) but I’m choosy about what i reveal, and it’s usually the well-processed stuff.

Harder question now: does Ti drive me or do I use it? i dunno. I don’t think i understand you.

But Ti is always there. I cannot get away from it. It’s my brain. It’s what I do. I’m thinking, I’m analyzing. Sometimes I’m dropping the logic on people, maybe irritating them, maybe not. Drinking alcohol is how I escape Ti. Contrast with Fe: it’s a relief to escape it, I can do it sober, and a successful day includes a chunk of time time with NO Fe. Or contrast with Te: Who even uses that function. Haha.


#10

I’ll take a stab at describing Ni and Fe in the context of having a conversation with someone. Ni is like getting the gist of information that’s given to me. For example, When my boss is talking to me, I will fade in and out of the conversation and am only picking up on snap shots of the conversation. But I still get a full scope cause I condense everything he’s said into one simple sentence. Not only do I get the gist of the info, but I get an understanding of the motive behind what’s been said. I respond with Fe by attempting his speaking style and vocabulary level with the substance of my response filtered dramatically with fluff.

Maybe I’ll make more sense later, or maybe this could be a starting point in trying to describe Ni. Here’s kind of how I think it might work internally though:

My internal mental process translated the speakers words from several of my prior built models of traditional dialogue that I’ve deposited into my mental bank through out my life…then I pieced these models together to form an entire picture. When identifying thier intention, it works the same way but instead I refer to my mental bank of diverse POV’s. This gets more complicated to explain. I’ll come back to this if I figure out how to explain though.


#11

I do this too; it can actually be incredibly difficult not to fade in and out, even when I am consciously trying my hardest to stay present and focussed on the conversation. A split-second’s inattention and I’m gone, only resurfacing when I need to respond to a comment or question. I used to beat myself up for doing this all the time, until I began to realise that my responses are usually appropriate and relevent even if I’ve lost track of the details. And even if I have no idea what has just been said, I can still seamlessly fill in the gaps with Fe-fluff.


#12

@krissy I think I feel like you do. Ti feels like me. But that’s because Ne is obviously Other. Observational. There is distance between me and the world and ideas. I don’t really have any ideas I just cook with them. They are outside. Ti is inside.

When I die so does the Ti but the outside stuff goes right on being. It’s just maybe I won’t be there to Ne it.

So the subjective, personal thing is Ti. My Brain. The objective thing is experienced via Ne: Life, the universe, and everything. 42.

Words are better for Ne because they have objective rhyme and objective definition. Talking and writing are thus better explorations for Ne.

Ni on the other hand doesn’t really even observe the world, it experiences the insights that reflect it or something. So Ni makes statements like “it’s true because it came to you.” It’s an epistemology that competes with my object-oriented preference of: “it’s true because it’s supported by a bunch of other things I’ve deemed true in the past or because it’s deemed true by sources I’ve deemed reliable in that regard, and its these sort of turtles all the way down.” I may be straw man-ing empiricism but it’s a reasonable effort considering I am so default biased against the Ni approach. Meanwhile, the Ni epistemology often begs the question.

I’ve lately come to think of Ni as like, wormholes in my head. Usually I see them after I’ve Ne’d at lightspeed for a year and then recognize that i could have taken the wormhole but I didn’t trust it would spit me out properly.

So I can understand them in that context: they are probabilistic. They are subjective observations that are so potent and fast that when correct, they make up for the times (half the time? More?) they are incorrect. When they are incorrect, there is additionally a chance that you’ll never know or it didn’t matter enough–like perhaps acting on a totally wrong Ni intuition brings a certain change in direction. So what. Must a piper be paid for that? So, they can be wrong and innocuous, and they can be right and miraculous/speedy and insightful.

Meanwhile Ne is like, total shit 99% of the time but every once in a while you get into a situation where you have more accurate insight and more systematizeable knowledge than can be got any other way. Hopefully your personal assistant will properly note it and file it with the people who use useful information.

Ni also has relationship to Si I think, like, but in a different dimension.

Si: Harvard businesss review explains how a culture of fear among the executive team at acme corp destroyed the company in the 80s, with anecdotes that illustrate the downfall and how the executive dysfunction caused it.

Ni: you meet with a prospective employer; wife asks how the interview went. You have to decide what to say because you know the company is going to fail because of the way the hiring manager described the executive team and how the gold medal awards on the walls looked like plastic and the table for a moment was bright red plastic and some lady was walking by when her plastic eye dropped out before you turned your attention back to the interview which in the real world was not being held over a plastic table. I know my example sucks but i do think this is how Ni looks for me. It’s like A vision of the future thst shows up in my head without citations. And wrong often. But it’s a wormhole.

Because

Ne: works for the company two years before Saying one day that “oh ma godd it really does all go straight back to the issues at the top, issues of our execs team’s interest in notoriety, most perfectly captured in the memory i have of that plastic looking glow of those gaudy old medals in that random room I first intervened in with the not red plastic table and the not real lady whose plastic eye fell out.” At this point Ne can describe every stellar cubic foot of space time between itself and the self that sat at that table for the interview years earlier, while Ni could have / did pop through that wormhole in a millisecond and glanced at the future, but without the mental paper trail.

Summary

Ne: light speed, without direction, and without mental cost at velocity. Just keeps going.

Ni: timespace travel but without body and without time cost.


How Does One Help an INFJ Feel Appreciated? How Does One Befriend an INFP?
#13

That’s an interesting description of Ni.

To me, the frustration of Ni is how people might interpret a statement like “It’s true because it came to you.” To me the statement is not so much a statement of or claim to objective truth in itself but rather a comment on the subjectivity of “truth”. I mean even known facts in science change when technology advances further and we can increase the precision and accuracy of our previous knowledge base. In 500 years our understanding of a lot of things we take for granted as true will look different from how it does now. What’s true today may not be true tomorrow; what’s true here may not be true somewhere else. What “truths” come to each individual depends on…

…wait for it…

…context.

Uh, here’s an example. My friend and I were looking at some color mockups for a project we were doing together and she suddenly goes, “But why is it purple???” And it was actually blue. Like, not even ambiguously blue or purplish blue. Why did she think it was purple? Maybe her color vision was deficient and she literally saw it as purple. Or maybe she’d always had a different understanding of what the colors purple and blue are. OR maybe I’M the one with color problem. What if it was one of those people who can see a much wider range of colors than most people? What colors would they see? Who’s right?

Well, each person can only speak from their own experience and understanding. What comes to each individual as truth is often different.

So the statement “it’s true because it came to you”, I think, would look very different depending on if you’re understanding it from an Fi sense (“it’s true because I want it to be true and it’s MY truth”) versus an Ni sense (“it’s true brcause this is the conclusion I have been able to come to based on my experiences and knowledge which are my only possible frame of reference and what comes to me as an individual is specific to ME and what comes to other people is specific to THEM.”)

I don’t think Blake was necessarily saying this as it being a good thing. Actually it’s often rather unfortunate. But from a practical sense that’s how people really operate.

I get the impression you’re understanding the statement more from an Fi sense since that’s probably what you have more experience with (via your wife) - and even your experience with Ni, as a tertiary trait, comes from an Fi-dominated angle.

Also, I think a sort of myth of Ni is that it spits out impressions out of nowhere. Where for me, it’s more like…a really fast, natural synthesis of all the data and experiences I’ve gathered to form a judgment based on an impression. Usually “what’s going to happen next?” or “What’s this person going to do?”

This synthesizing of different seemingly disparate patches of information to come to a conclusion happens on a barely-conscious level, without effort. Which is what makes it seem like it comes out of nowhere. Now, if I sit and think long enough about WHERE and HOW each impression came about, I could probably tell you. It’s just that it tends to take a lot of effort. Um, I think this is where Ti tert comes in, maybe - it’s the process of having to pick apart exactly where and how those Ni conclusions came about. The hard facts and data supporting it.

I actually have a really hard time understanding what Ne is. But my impression is that Ni starts big (the “whole picture”) and narrows down, down, down, to boil things down to their essence. Ni dom wants to use the big picture to get to a point or extract a core.

My impression of Ne is that it works in reverse - it starts from a point and then explodes outwards in all directions, out into the universe of possibilities. Correct me if I’m wrong.


#14

Yeah I don’t know if my take on Ni is at all correct. But hell I can’t describe Ne either.


#15

I think I said this before but I think Ni is like a priori (based on some very preliminary evidence or hunch/logical chain of thought, have a hypothesis, to be proven later when you gather more evidence–so it looks like conclusion first) and Ne is like posteriori type of research/epistemology (after gathering all sorts of information to reach a saturation point, synthesizing it, and coming to some sort of conclusion or generate even more questions to follow up on).
Fi/Fe flavour Ni is much more murky/social/subjective in quality than Ti/Te flavour of Ni, but much to INTJ lament, social context and social “truths” still matter… hahah!

Ne is often branching, you see the overall pattern after it reaches its limits, clarity comes from seeing all the blotches form the picture. While Ni is like… internally fractal, the microcosm explains the macrocosm, clarity comes from dissecting/distilling the basic essence of the material. Something like that!


#16

I always kind of struggle to relate to these descriptions because they feel too chaotic. I think I look a lot more chaotic outwardly than I feel inwardly. My head explodes in directions that surprise people but to me they always seem to be the direction you’d have to try really hard not to pursue. So it feels less scattered and more like a willingness to jump to the necessary distance, which it subjectively feels like others are for an unknown reason not willing to do.

Like the boundaries just don’t make sense to me. It literally doesn’t make sense to me how Erika could actually care about threads being used for their proper purpose. I can imagine rules leveraged for power structures Te or posterity/culture Si, but I can’t understand it actually mattering in a real way in present tense to an individual separate from some historical perspective. Makes me wonder if people actually utilize the threads and topics in this forum. Like wake up and be like “I think I’ll peruse the threads about xyz today.” Hard for me to understand why they wouldn’t just search. Maybe people aren’t as used to searching or they have had experience being like “I keep files like this in folders like those; I keep clothes like this in drawers like that; I keep activities like this in parts of my day like that.” I’ve had experience trying that for a day or so but never benefiting from it so that’s where I’m blind, is to the value that could come from it. Always blows me away when I watch someone perusing files in their computer that are organized logically, based on, apparently, some sole signifying essence of the file. I don’t own any objects or file that have an essence.

same people with great file systems will be like “let me open the notes file for the project” and I’m always like, how did you know where it was? I have fourteen notes files, none of which matter after they are created. The creating is the scaffolding but I don’t need to review them–once they are created they are usually useless because in creating them I see what we need to do next.

But working with some people who can both Keep the notes file and be like “lets scrap all this stuff then if we are moving away from these notes” can be super effective. Requires that they have somehow seen me get somewhere before.


#17

“Like the boundaries just don’t make sense to me. It literally doesn’t make sense to me how Erika could actually care about threads being used for their proper purpose.” Yeah, well, that’s what I meant when I said ENTPs just clamber merrily over the walls of mazes rather than adhere neatly to its walls like they’re “supposed” to do. Like, I think most types will look at the walls (e.g., sticking to categories and staying on topic in them) and think, “They’re there for xyz reasons, therefore, I will follow them, because following agreed-upon guidelines form a structure of behavioral principles which will allow this community to run smoothly.”

Whereas ENTPs and, in a different sense, ESTPs, are more like, “If I can clamber over the wall and go where I want and there’s nothing to stop me from doing it, then why shouldn’t I, if it gets me to where I want to go and lets me do what I wanna do?” For example, you breaking Gmail’s terms of service, somehow, which I didn’t even think was…like…possible to do. Count on an ENTP to be the one to find some miraculous way to get kicked off Google Mail. I am still in awe.

ENFJs operate very strongly from Fe. Like, how Blake was saying that people meandering all over the place taking advantage of the freedom to post in Site Feedback is disrespectful. To him as the owner of this space, and to those who rely on everyone else keeping their posts relevant to the topics to navigate the forums. Erika is highly savvy to that kind of thing. What’s rude, what’s disrespectful, what are the “social rules/values” of a given space. That’s their bread and butter.


#18

lol good point, never thought about this one. Guess what they reinstated. I sent them this insane person diatribe and they reinstated without any comment a month later. Still fucked up a lot of stuff.

I learned my lesson though. Which was: someday I should stop being totally dependent on google.

Who says Entp is not a ninja.


#19

Also I enjoyed that Erika did it, because it made me really curious and intrigued to see the note. I was laughing and my lack of comprehension does not reflect a lack of belief that it could be very important.

Funny tertiary Fe is like “I’m good at people! Don’t be mean! Don’t tell me the rules, that’s mean!”


#20

INFJ: HAAHHA
INFJ: john’s laughing proudly over breaking gmail
Prax: yes!
Prax: HAHAH
Prax: cutes!
Prax: horrid!
Prax: and no entp definoitely not ninja
Prax: crying at google and writing insane letter like a homeless man on his last wits is nto ninja
INFJ: HAHAHAHHAA
INFJ: reply with this
Prax: think goodness for intp or infp who took pituies on him


#21

I like this one.

My take on Ni is precisely this and my take is pretty simplistic. I’ll say, @wendy, I’m pretty sure I’m not making the Fi/Ni distinction error with isfp wife because I have this view that like, I don’t see much Ni in her except paranoia. Mostly I see Fi and Se and Si Id. I feel she is not conscious of Ni except “I need something to look forward to.”

Like, when she meets someone she discerns a great deal about them but she does not conclude. She’ll describe the interaction and her body carries the sentiment. She’s exhausted or she’s energetic. And you can go based on that. But she doesn’t notice that about herself so she says “yeah they were cool, I was just so tired.” She blames herself and doesn’t realize she has already discerned that they are not cool, not right for the job, not right for her nonprofit board, whatever. Meanwhile if I am with her for such meetings my impressions are all wrong. So if she goes alone and reports to me I can tell her what her takeaways are lol.

I feel like if she had more Trust in her Ni she’d conclude more quickly on this stuff but I don’t know. I don’t see much Ni there.