STELLAR MAZE DISCUSSION FORUM

Ne+Te = truth outside?

I’ve been thinking a lot about Ti versus Te today. And WHERE I perceive truth to “lie”. I can’t figure out if Ni is the truth function or T. N+T seems to have something to do with truth.

In any case I experience a version of “truth” as outside of me. I don’t know if it’s Ne or Te. Or Ni+Te. Or is it mostly Ne?

For example, say I have to install baseboard. I am immediately and very quickly aware of how the corners must line up and how the measurements and cuts will have to be clean. The actual baseboard is not perceived. The way the nails are hidden is not perceived. But the constraints are. I can even sense weights of external force. But it’s very external to me. I’m not describing a process here. Why do I call it truth? Because it’s TRUE, those corners must line up haha:) unless I’m going for a weird full of gaps style. Evident:)

Another crazy example…my intp said he’d like curtains to darken the bedroom. I started the task like one month ago. We still have no curtains. Why?

I’ve been taking way too hard a look at that task as if this were a fucking science project. I don’t know why this task in particular…what the heck. Have been scanning like some fucking radar for possible options, but then I look so hard at each option.

Option 1: mostly likely stinks like chemicals
Option 2: do I really want to sew, and pull out a special foot on the machine

(dies of boredom)

Option 3: won’t wash easy
Option 4: what’s a curtain, can I just hang slats? but then somehow drawn back into what about this task and cracking it.
Option 5: won’t wash at all but is safe
Option 6: safe, costs more, must replace as it disintegrates probably in a few years

and on and on…meanwhile we just melt every morning as the sun streams in during our coronavirus lazy mornings.

maybe…
Option 7: wake up before the sun heats the room? NAH

Anyhow, it’s like a tail spin of options and constraints (ne and te) and outcomes (Ni?)

And I’m bad at it in the sense that if I look into it then I look into it and then keep looking at it. Sometimes my Te will kick in and VERY FAST figure it out. But it seems so random when it does or doesn’t. I think the reason that Te often doesn’t kick in is that I literally “see Te” OUT THERE, in the universe, and the universe has a really amazing operation. I forget to own it and drive it. I’m so busy looking.

Ah so pointless.

Okay, in general, with anything, I’m always scanning the horizon for options and constraints. Total yoyo between what can be and what can’t. There is a lot of truthiness in the constraints. But Ne’s job is to then sort of sidestep. So the constraints multiply rather than guide.

Till lightning strikes and out of the blue, Te goes BAM.

With an error rate of like 80 % haha. When I strike, my intp thinks it’s actually kind of hot, lol, except for when he thinks it’s dickish, darn.

Anyhow if I contrast to Ti. My intp if he needs to do baseboard, goes about it totally differently. He sees nothing immediately. He often says “wait”. He slowly familiarizes himself with the baseboard, or at least with aspects of the baseboard. He researches and emergently he will begin to orient himself toward some kind of approach based on knowing the parts but also knowing a concept of how one can go about it. Perhaps there are constraints but they just seem to be a part of constructing the picture. I’m not sure “force” is experienced by him. Maybe “weight” but I think less so for some reason. Dunno. But maybe weight.

So there is this really hard truth OUT THERE. I believe it. It’s unbending and quite mysterious. It’s harsh and beautiful and more deeply moving than humanity itself. How can that be though? Isn’t the human at the center of everything? Well have you ever been totally surprised by an occurrence? Have you ever seen iron rusting…how could humans be at the center of it? What’s up with that iron rusting. Try to come up with a human-centered explanation:D

For infp, there is another Fi truth inside as well but that one is totally subjective. The truth out there is objective, it’s like there for the picking and bumping into, obstacles and feedback loops.

So it’s interesting to me what the heck Ti is…a subjective objective truth. Kind of cool.

As I speak, wind is hammering the trees, and well that’s truer than anything else. What could be truer than that. The massive oaks are moving. The sight is completely dimmed by rain and a dust cloud supposedly is passing overhead from half way around the planet.

It would be cool for infp as they get older to start integrating Te. I think it will feel very good. To be willing to align with constraints is the ULTIMATE Ne.

What a fucking high.

anyhow i’d love to hear a human-centered explanation for iron rusting…lol, what would it look like…i could picture someone seeing themselves into the process of rusting i guess. someone might try to let it reflect something about themselves.

but what would it look like if you blur the lines and see no distinction between the natural time-based process of rusting and subjective reflection to the point that you almost don’t see the iron as rusting outside of yourself. is it a thing?

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Hmm, I want to say things, but the external truth of a deadline is hanging over my head. I’ll be back! :smiley:

That iron be oxyphobic. Imagine what that oxygen does to the iron in your bloodstream? And to mention, the force of gravity towards the planet’s molten iron core. Or the weight of it, in your muscles and bones.

What is outside? The space inside the walls of the house is the very same space between Saturn and its rings and the rest of the universe. Neither here nor there, isn’t space simply a “one thing”?

When Wood meets Fire, who is excited more, Wood or Fire? Is it the condensated atmosphere, sublimely returning to its ethereal form, free of the soil and toil, at last? Or is it Fire who grows and grows, and shines brightly, enthusiastically? Ever hungry; ever desirous for more and more.

And so, Iron, who “oxidates”, expresses a feeling of magnetic disintegration, or else? An iron prism, much like a prison, releases divine electrons to the air and light.

oh my goodness the chuckle…

bravo!!

gold :smiley:

I relate to your INTP here… I laughed.
Sometimes I have messed up and hurt his feelings. Sometimes he has messed up and hurt mine.
I talk about people with effective Te and he tells me he is going to fire me and hire me at a lower wage.
I am not gonna mention the 80% effective rate to him… oh, probably already have… several times… doh!
But yeah, very sexy when he is getting things done. Or dickish. But that turns me on, too.

that rate is higher than mine. mine is more at 20:D

No, I got it mixed up. You said error rate, I mixed it with effective rate. If you think it is 20, no wonder… just no wonder it is a sore spot for him. I think he is far more effective than 20% and I’m sure yours is much higher too.

Everyone has a “problem”. Mine is Te. It’s taken me a lifetime, it’s taking the whole damm lifetime to learn to manage that. But also to forgive myself about it. I wouldn’t want to start my life over, but I could have done without all the problems that inferior Te has caused. I’ve had to just accept that a day at work can send me home completely DONE. I’m just DONE. It could also be the Se. And when you teach you go home and you grade and you prepare more. But then you got to be the cool parent to your kids. I’m not sure why I am built this way. It’s very hard to accept this about myself. There is so much shame attached to Te. I’m also good at it strangely. But it just feels like shit. Right now during coronavirus quarantine I’ve had such good Te moments. Te has been an actual pleasure. But when it’s nonstop for work, it’s like a problem that I have like all infps I guess. It’s just hard to be you know humble about a problem. Sometimes I describe to my intp how miserable the teaching makes me and he misunderstands the point. I don’t feel too special to have a job. In fact, the guilt of not working has been so much that I am back at the teaching job. I always feel guilty not working. One of the things I’ve had the hardest time learning, it’s even more shameful, is to just suffer without complaining. I complain to release that awful tension. I actually think stress tears is what I need to learn to do. Go cry tears instead of complain. So embarrassing. To have that kind of tension. At the job, it’s only certain aspects that drive me nuts. Giving out grades. Student evaluations (my job hiring letter just now said I have to NAIL student comments). What! How the hell can I do that. I’m always thinking the math is beautiful show the beauty. The outcome is “worst teacher on campus” and so on. Anyhow, no I do not think I am a special snowflake. That’s not it. I simply am using a lifetime to learn to properly manage the tension inside. I find myself saying things like “I know I sound like a bitch right now but I just need 30 minutes alone” stuff like that. It’s a release of tension before an explosion. And I sound like a bitch. I’ll also just snap if someone implies I think I’m special. Like I’ll just bark at them and bite their head off. I’m such a snowflake that I want them to appreciate that I actually do think I should just be working for the sake of everyone. That message has definitely been drilled into me from somewhere and totally internalized. I go and do it. Please appreciate this about me I’m screaming inside. So snowflake that doesn’t actually think she is a snowflake. I am one but I don’t think I am one.

That venting…it’s like a sin of mine…

So shameful.

I’ve been hanging out with my isfp friend and I saw her Te struggles and for some reason it helped me to try and forgive myself. Because I could see her shame about it and I didn’t want her to feel the shame and then it was like such a mirror.

I actually believe the guilt just sort of triggers the Te more.

You just have to admit sometimes you have a problem to work on.

I find it helpful to call it “my problem”. Or “my infp problem”. It just helps take the edge off. Because no matter what I have to keep getting better at it. It’s an imperative. Te has been the one imperative that keeps getting stronger. I give into it more and more getting older. I guess thank god.

It’s also not a real problem. There are real problems and this isn’t one of them.

Isn’t that the greatest shame of them all?

So much shame.

I don’t actually have any real problems in my life.

Well now I have grossed myself out.

This was all triggered by being asked if I would rather teach this course or that course (both are god awful, lol, just the worst junk, like I will just do it but oh my fucking god it really does destroy me. am not a special snowflake guess yes I am it WILL kill me no it won’t this shit kills nobody)

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Seeing this from your perspective really, really helps! From my perspective, I’ve given him grief in different ways over this. One is sitting stoically to listen until I just can’t anymore and become impatient and apathetic but I’m not the one working all the damn time, so I suck it up as best I can and give as much understanding as I can, and gratitude and doing better of late, I think. And I think being better heard decreases the sufferings.
I was built kinda stoic [and just for fun if ISTP moon, then doubles]. But it’s like holding your shit in. Bad, very, very unhealthy for you. And some of the result of his expounding on work or suffering of other kinds was that everyone asked about him to me, when I was also suffering, but silently or so infrequently or with so little emphasis, that it was not remembered. So I’ve taken the permission to say when things are especially bad, mostly to him, but occasionally to others as needed.

I think I may have just quoted like 75% of your post. I’m shit with numbers though, so?

I have so much shame built into Se, but I think I best write that seperate from this post.
My husband has this compulsion for Te, almost like yeah, a shame or lack, a social lack, for not living up to both his and society’s expectations. And yeah, again, same with Se for me. For me that lack of humble is that I don’t want to be seen trying and failing? But I’m seen failing all the time, so wtf? Trying might be worth trying.

Yeah, he would have a hard time with that, too. From my position as parent, all I ever wanted from the comments if given was something to let me see that you see my child, that they are on your radar. Some tiny comment that I will recognize as pertaining to them. Does not have to be long at all. Just accurate. But like thirty of those? Ack! I am often shocked at what is expected from teachers.

And this is where being a woman becomes being a bitch. When my husband really needs to leave, he leaves. If he needs a nap, he takes one. If he needs to go ride his motorcycle, he won’t just go without talking to me, but he will state that it is going to happen tomorrow or whenever and is there some reason I have for not a certain time. So he doesn’t have to be an ass, just direct and employing self care, which is… I think I don’t wanna make this post that long…

No, totally fair to ask for appreciation for something that is hard for you, Te in fourth. The accessibility of functions has really helped me with understanding how challenging things can be for people and how hard they may actually be trying when in fact may not look like trying because it is so hard. Really fucking hard. Not gonna be stoic here. So fucking hard. And so much fucking shame.

It would seem so. But often the compulsion go a bit reckless.

Hmmm, neither do I then, but boy do I.

Your probably shouldn’t though. I am serious. My intp basically hates listening to me and it’s been so good for me. Oh my god, I feel so full of shame right now fuck. Btw, when I’m being bad, I know that I am. Those vents are really evil.

Evil in that you want to like proverbially rope him while you vent?

I sort of learned that actually, it’s like being an adult. Trust me. Maybe let it out into a notebook or something. But a person that doesn’t keep their shit in IS a walking mess.

Evil because it’s damage. I guess I call evil that which is causing damage around you. I think our inferior functions have evil in them.

And so we have to own them. Which is really really hard.

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And yet he’s afraid he’ll hurt me by grabbing my ass too hard.

Oh yeah, I’ve cost people a lot for not having a handle on Se. Me and everyone close to me.
I am trying to own it, but it is really slow and I keep slipping.

it’s universal to have inferior function problems. i’m sorry this whole thing got a little out of hand. honestly I’m so embarrassed i’m gonna disappear. lord.

<3 <3 to you. <3<3

I really appreciate your side. I get the shame. You don’t see me posting any pictures of after I fucked everything up, do you? But I am going to try to talk about it. I am also still going to talk about myself in my life and time, it has been cooking.
It was much better as a child [Se], before tragedy and unending responsibility. Or mayhap like my moon had better access to me? I like kicking the moon about a bit to consider things. Consider nurture and nature and other phenomena.
Also it doesn’t seem out of hand to me. To you, I see, but it won’t be for me until I try.
Also so easy to get lost in the maze.

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I calmed down lol, I totally crumpled in the bathroom. Even though I’ve got no problems in life. Absurd!

The comments alluded to in the hiring letter are the comments students (adults) write about the teacher. I need to nail those. I usually have terrible letters of evaluation. What is scary is sometimes the more I put into it the worse the letters are. The more I try to be THAT organized teacher who gives you the plan for the whole semester, whose every lecture is a masterpiece of saying just the right things in just the right order, assigning just the right problems in just the right frequency. Who can keep different sections resembling each other. Etc. It’s frustrating to say the least and I just fill up with self doubt. BUT enough about that.

Actually maybe our inferior functions are not evil. Maybe that’s the journey. To embrace them for the good they carry. I don’t know. It’s kind of tricky with the inferior.

Blake says work on the auxiliary and superego.

Like a bypass. Sometimes that Te is like such a commanding imperative though–the bypass thing is tricky.

“Se giving way to Ne embrace” taking Ni? pressure off Te.

It’s funny, sometimes the auxiliary feels good and sometimes it doesn’t seem to meet the imperatives, like a cheap cheat. But I guess sometimes you gotta cheat. I’d like to know why the easier way seems harder and feels so reckless. What a joke. When teaching it seems harder because it’s mostly isjs isps and esps (nurses and kinesiology) and they ain’t got time for Ne math trips. But somehow I should EMBRACE THAT TOO. Holy fuck. Am gonna EMBRACE the challenge of using Ne in the classroom. Like some fucking voodoo ninja shit that like nobody ever tells you is okay to do, but maybe it is. It solves math problems doesn’t it. It’s math isn’t it? Man o man…so 2 levels of Ne, one for the math, and one for the fact that students don’t like math Ne but they like people Ne and so therefore you’re gonna have to bridge that. Making it the true Ne that is needed. Make it work like a freaking circus clown. As the pressure weans off Te give it a final Te finishing touch from time to time. Like a bow. Sounds totally retarded. Could it work?

“Te giving way to Fe (so do express the inside @TinyYellowTree , DO)” taking Fi? pressure off Se.

Then less pressure on the inferiors. So funky.

So, I can’t seem to just do things like with balance or in the moment conscientious choices to do with the reality of my wreck. Se? I envy the grace and intelligence of tertiary Si. Not perfect, maybe not as easy as Dom or Aux Si, but helpful physically/healthfully. The ability to lecture on something you know, do something again like you’ve done it before. Or perhaps others of my ilk can, might more be me.

So Te through Fe using Fi to alleviate Se [?] But back to above where I said I lack… self discipline in a sense, but it’s also just the way I work, full on and Te needs no discipline to go when it is what I want. When I am on, I am so on. I write all day long and into the night and don’t want to go to sleep. Things that prevent me, irritate me. Full on focus till my eyes refuse to stay open.
But then I don’t care about food so much, and just eat whatever [nutritious snacks, more on that later] I can find and tend here and there to things like dog walking, but SO much is not getting done. Like I can’t just do a bit of everything every day, like yeah, laundry, outside work, switch it up. Nope. And Infrequent exercise. Why is that so hard ,to get out and take a walk [cause I have to drive to a place I like to walk, don’t like neighborhoods, need woods, but still why so hard?] My husband, tertiary Si, does it so naturally, he’ll walk anywhere. He just knows it makes him feel better and he does it. I know it makes me feel better and I sit and write and make poor health choices while inhaling information, like so much I fill up and it’s sad because I remember so little. So like gorge or starve with the Te/Se. Te directed for Fe feels so happy, so right, like fucking.
Te directed at others is reckless and barely controllable, clumsy and hurtful. Am I saying any of what you were asking for? You said express the inside, you mean what I am doing? Writing? Or did you mean here? If I do here, without morning pages, yikes. Because the raw leaks and then I delete what I often consider my humanity for a perfection that after years I find to be a bad [funny gods funny] joke on me. But how not fun and how not educational to see nothing but control when I can be the poster girl for ‘unhealthy infj’ warning: don’t do this or here you’ll be. No, I think I prefer eking out and oozing like a bad job of caulking. This may be wrong thinking. Like my history with wrong foods. Like some can get away with it, but can I?

So the comments are on you! Gods! Totally different. But here is where I’m gonna say what I was hoping to fit in somewhere, which is if your father could see you here, man oh man! Like so much is left hidden with people and here we are so lucky to know you.
So with that in mind, I think trying too hard to be what is expected [like trying to bend unnaturally for comments when being you might work beautifully if you tried it] and not actually being yourself is where problems arise. My favorite teachers were always the one’s whose self shone through and who allowed themselves room to be.
And this thing where father’s just see us as chasing kids, doing dishes and talking about whatever if anything because busy, tired and distracted is just such a tragedy. I feel like my role as mom is boring in its monotony [fuck how do you spell that?] which does not seem avoidable. I find me blank if looking from out there, or blank and particular, which is worse. Just so much that has to be dealt with that there is no energy left for ‘you’ to come to the surface in any tangible/meaningful way. Just fucking towing the line and exhausted till ‘looking together’ becomes a shredded illusion.
So now, the Ne that is you. The Ne in math. I hates math where I have to make formulas work [nightmare incompetence]. I like math theory. I like math Ne, but it has to be idea heavy/detail [formula] light. And if I was in class, and you did this, ah the relief, I’d listen with delight. Would not matter if I fully understood, let my neighbor understand, and let me just breathe in the Ne.

Joke, yeah. It seems to have gotten slippery for me, Fe. Careless… feels ineffectual, no, just too tired. The energy feels fake, like I can do it but I feel like my heart not being in it is visible. So I avoid it. I avoid having to spend energy on Fe that is just tiring and does not give back what it requires in spades. So even though I can for a bit, if I have to kick off auto and reach in… I have to scrape the dregs for something, anything… and I feel badly saying this.
It’s people in my space, or my having to go people. Hence why I am online, on my bum, and trying to be me.
But what I was trying to say was that auto is not what you want. You want naturally fulfilling. What is legit you, so in that way it is both natural, for me anyhow, takes courage. Like if I was Fe-ing honestly [expressing myself harmoniously, not trying to be what everyone needs or I think they need], I would not have to dredge, which I should not be doing anyhow. I would offer what I am, which would be right, but not cheaty. Perhaps my cheaty is different from yours, if I crossed paths, then oops.

Wow @TinyYellowTree, I loved that so open. That was great. I wonder if you feel more or less tired after writing it?

I know! I was really musing on it and I really think it’s a cosmic joke but also cosmic gift. Why should Fe work? Why should Ne work? Why???

I think it must have to do with energy. But it might be more a mystery. A trick. I really don’t know.

I don’t think it solves ANY problems either. There are probably no shortcuts. But it does something to the psyche. And that might actually be even more important. I don’t know.

As for Fe-ing here on the maze or elsewhere I would imagine that’s just up to you how or where.

But I actually did really love what you wrote. Also Fe is not the fake function:) It’s the Fe function.

But I understand what you’re saying. The auxiliary seems to violate the ambitious goals of the dominant and even id, lol, it’s the greatest irony. That’s why maybe the superego is needed. So seems to violate some pretty deeply held goals and also seems to avoid the actual problem. No? So guess we don’t have to think of it as solving the problem but as increasing energy to solve the problem.

I think one can drain on the auxiliary as well. In fact, “running the ship” appears to be DAMM tricky, lol.

Truly I don’t know…

it really does take a lifetime doesn’t it. Just a lifelong journey.

Maybe it takes energy to use the auxiliary in the first place though. To be robbed of one’s energy.

I feel you on this. It’s a bit of a cruel discovery when you’re a parent. I think you’re making the point it’s particularly tough on low Se/low Si?

that was a really sweet thing to say. that’s some really good Fe:)