Ne vs Ni perception of time?


#1

I wanted to post about a thing and I thought there was a thread about “sense of time” but I can’t find it, so I’ll post it here!

You know how with Ni there is some sense of history and finding roots and “essense” or ontological origin and ending of things? And Ne is similar but is more focused on the relations between subjects or objects and possibilties? So both of them deal with “time” and “reality” but are diametrically different from one another it seems.

And there is also the thing, the thing that keeps jumping out at me when dealing with Ni dom vs Ne dom, and I find it interesting and here it is:

Ni-dom says: Oh, I have envisioned this perfect masterpiece/product/outcome in my head and it’s wonderful and it’s as if I already did it, so why even complete steps to actualize it when it’s just as good as done in my visions? => inertia, never doing this thing
=> solution is Se axis of JUST DO IT

Ne-dom says: Oh, I have envisioned this perfect masterpiece/product/outcome in my head and it’s wonderful and it’s as if I already did it, so why not jump to the step right AFTER that since it’s as good as accomplished already? => scattered, out-of-order/backwards actions
=> solution is Si axis of DO IT RIGHT

I think INxP also get into some trap of both where the outcome seems like it has already happened, and Se is harder to access, so maybe it’s super inertia (Ni-id). And ENxJ ont he otehr hand get superambitious and spread themselves too thin trying bulldoze or skip through every step (Ne-id).

What do you think? Has this happened for you? :smiley: Definitely Ni-dom stuff happens for me. I think it’s why our extroverted cousins of ENFJ and ENTJ often see INxJ as skilled but “unmotivated” aka “wasting your talents” or something.

lol i must go back and edit my herrendous gramansrs


#2

The way I’ve always seen things is that Ni is concerned with the forms of things, the fundamental structure of reality that is necessary and permanent, while Ne is to do with the content of these things. Ne is concerned with the the possibilities and alternatives, and the form of the thing just lies in the foreground, they are not conscious of them. I.e. Ni are concerned with the permanent structure of justice, while Ne is focussed on the alternative different contents of justice (distributive justice, commutative justice, etc.). All possibilities and alternatives infer a basic structure, but Ne isn’t often aware of what this is, since their focus is on the difference.

When it comes to time, I’ve always believed that the strength of Ni comes from its ability to situate itself in time, to understand time, the necessities in it, hence the ability to predict things. While Ne sees the changeable elements of times and the possibilities opened up by these.

So when it comes to Ne ‘masterpieces’, I don’t think they see things like this. Or if they have a ideal/model it is in the literal sense constructed from their imagination.


#3

When it comes to practically engaging with time and projects, I believe Ni-doms often just sit and meditate on what to do, or create the perfect thing, before they actually start doing it (hence their neurotic nature, and tendency to not actually enact anything perfectly).

I would think this problem doesn’t occur to Ne-doms, and that their main problem is not the problem of ‘enacting an ideal’ but having a a constant structure that guides them in the first place. They have plenty of solutions but they don’t know what the problem is.


#4

That’s exactly how I am with art ideas, plus developing Se techniques to make it mesh with my vision gets frustrating. Maybe Dale Chihuly is Ni dom- plan out the sculpture then have a shop full of ISTPs and ISTJs to actually make it, that’s what I want.


#5

This is like “what is a diamond’s composition” vs “facets and forms of a diamond” kinda thing yeah! And I think when it comes to ENTP at least, there is some element of “reality can be all these realities, so I must name and see data for which one this is”, thus moving into the Ti aux in order to “figure out” which reality they are living in. It leads to their more devil’s advocate tendencies where there’s this sending feelings in every direction to test the boundaries and find the “shape” of reality as it forms.

I think they definitely skip steps as if they are outside the dimension of causality sometimes! haha
I posit that they do not place the problem in a linear context of “time” becase it is but “one possible problem to deal with” and Ne is about this sense of webs of relations and systemic ties and they want to be “over there” doing 'that other stuff" rather than dealing with “over here” with this specific problem, and thus, mess happens.

That’s what people try to tell INTJ anyway: to learn to work with people and delegate. AWFUL!


#6

I like this, captures a thing about me as a Ne dom that can be surprising. I can seem like a smart guy about everything related to a relevant thing but I generally am close to blind about the structure of said thing itself. I think both Si and Ni folks see me getting all the related stuff and take it for granted that I’ve grocked the main thing’s structure—they might for example think that my dexterity on related things would necessitate structural understanding of the main thing—and then can be a bit surprised when I can’t keep up or don’t behave as anticipated given my lack of grappling (yet) with structural stuff around the main thing. My understanding of it eventually shows up after I’ve gotten a handle on how the thing interacts with it’s adjacent concepts. Eventually I can infer structure for the thing. I never really observe it. Just infer it as a necessary structure given the thing’s interaction with adjacent ideas.

I think I’m even doing that in this comment. Not on purpose. I’m just translating what you said to some language that makes sense to me by making it all about stuff swirling around the thing rather than the thing itself.

Edit (I mistated that; I’m translating it not “so it makes sense to me,” but more accurately so I can remember it, integrate it, use it. Standing alone it will be lost)

Most my brainstorming and talking out loud is probably some version of this.


#7

I think @RumDawg is correct in saying Ne doesn’t see it this way. i.e. I don’t know what it would mean to hunker down and create a masterpiece. The word Down does not fit in the same sentence as a concept about me building a thing. Building is what it is, rather than making or like, umm, actualizing a thing. And the thing itself is not usually a reduction of chaos into an ideal or perfect model (sorry I can hardly talk about Ni aims I know I’m surely missing it) but a mixing of many simple/pure things to create a mess that reveals something new or creates something new. I think Ne is looking to escape the control of the human mind and hoping to manifest something accidentally new. If it’s already in my head I truly lose interest in it. Not totally but slightly. I’m looking for what I don’t yet imagine and I often find things in the real world that I never imagined in my head, or I mix real things and discover that there are impossible results in my mind. Playing around with what’s impossible is part of it. The difficulty of proving something truly is impossible means Ne can be entertained for quite a while testing recipes that others haven’t thought to try, thinking maybe we don’t understand the fundamental structure of things well enough to rule something totally impossible. Because what if I mixed this with that, and we bent time and space on accident? Who knows?

That pure childish version of it, put on rails and trained a bit by Ti or I guess Fi for enfp, is just like, as a rule, in motion seeking possible answers. It can look like a tendency to “want to be over there” but it doesn’t want to be anywhere. Just wants to go the opposite of where makes sense thinking “maybe nobody has looked over there” and then “maybe nobody has looked in the place three notches right of obvious, the place known as “boring and monotonous.” I think this is the biggest reason I believe Blake that Davie Foster Wallace was a Ne dom not Ni dom. “I’m going to master tax policy and write about it for The Pale King.” That’s the “boring” zone that would seem to me a good place to look for unmined value.

I guess it wasn’t enough value for DFW :dizzy_face:

With regard to time: my behavior is more related to not knowing what to do, only knowing how to get close to it kind of, and also, when I do actually hit nails on their head, I move quick, because I’ve been adjusting all kinds of things around the central Nail On Head thing and so the universe tends to help me by like, shaping all the details for me and shit just slides into place. I think of time as pretty unrelated to my success or failure. Or I should say I don’t have enough control over my actions and where they occur in time to consider it relevant. Not that I don’t try or worry or, eh, never mind, I don’t worry. I don’t.

Other people want time to be part of most discussions. So for years I gave my best estimates. Off by an order of magnitude usually. Now I just think “how long would it take an average person?” And I give that answer. It takes about average. I work on it out of sequence so it might be halfway done the day before average timer is up. And then done the day after the timer goes. And by done I mean 90% done.


#8

^ Does the above not exactly sound like many words to say “i like build thing i don’t have true plan for bc what is plan? what is idea? i want to play and discover what has been wrought” and many pleasant surprise it is an interesting disaster

And is this not as i say that Ne acts as if it outside of linear caussaility hahah
"well time not relevant to me"
meanwhiel car repossessed, children now in teens
finally divorce happens maybe and successful remarriage falls below 20% chance possibilty!!!
i guess it all depends where you put and move the goalposts of “success” but serendipitously Ne is very good at that too lol


#9

YOU HIT NERVES
I paid my car today. Wahoo.


#10

Very insightful—I am rather tempted to quote you if you don’t mind.

I think this is where Ni and Ne benefit from working together and agreeing to respect and incorporate each other’s strengths, but can really clash when they don’t see eye to eye.


#11

@prax I should post that thing I sent you about my relationship to time

Ended up transcribing a big convo; I even simplified some parts for clarity. Instant Messaging can be confusing because we talk over each other.

YOU CAN PURCHASE THE FULL 600 page transcript of PRAX AND JOHNO CONVERSATIONS FOR $1000. 78 days, over 250,000 words, after stripping out our names and time stamps. NOT KIDDING. DONT MISS YOUR CHANCE. ONly Four More. Call Now And I will Throw in a sonnet.


Johno:

Time thread is very much in Ni speak, Almost inaccessible to me. I actually can hardly understand it

Prax:

you mean my explains or rumdawg’s or… lol

Johno:

I try, but I see you and Ni dom goinf bacj and forth at level I can’t get. You’re sharp it’s fun to watch
Probably there are assumed things that my head doesn’t assume which makes it hard to follow

Prax:

if i remember rumdawg’s thing, it was that Ne wants to see everything but don’t know the true form of what it "is"
but i do not remember what he said about time

Johno:

yeah
But what you said about time
Hmm
It was mostly you I couldn’t follow
I “felt” I could follow rumdawg correctly or not

Prax:

i did not think i was confusing but maybe i word wrong haha

Johno:

No it is dense is what it is
Which is why it attracted smart boy rumdawg
Very smart I think
Quick little fuck

Prax:

intj sees time as linear mostly. but i think entp sees it as like relative web, so the future past and present are just all "there"
while intj are very “that part was done. now next part.” so things have to be done in steps in full, not part of this and part of that maybe later
so when i see you getting ahead of yourself, i think “hmmm, this will be a mess”

Johno:

Their implications are [just all there for ENTP]

Adjusted for the changes in time tho

This is best I’ve ever seen it this moment haha

In present, future and past states have implications that press on the present in hard to ignore ways

When future states change the present changes

correction: when future estimates change, present implications change

When past states are reinterpreted the implications change too

Probably basic shit right there I dunno maybe when Ne boils down it looks basic to me

The present needs to be aligned in some way to accommodate the future

That’s the work of the day for me

Every day

Or else I’m kind of negelcting to live in, whatever you want to call it, an examined way. With intention

Also present has to understand the past, but that’s not as important

Since if you can DO A THING in the present then you necessarily understand the past well enough to do it, don’t you

So DOING in the present is proof of sufficient alignment with the past

But doesn’t speak to alignment with future

Which is more work. That aligning

Prax

then it all compress in entp brain and some extrusion happen for next action

but we do not live in compressed realities–most of us hahah

thus your entp actions often appear nonsensical

Johno:

Am what I am saying seem true for Entp

Does what I am saying seem like, I am hitting model right

Describing self as you have [observed?]

Prax

i was at page 12 of that pdf* and it seems like yeah entp values

*PDF is Ray Dalio’s book, Principals.

Johno

Or possibly other Ne
Yeah

Prax

learn from past, adjust for future, chase the possible, but know what IS possible, etc

Johno

It’s fun i am very excited this instant because somehow I just explained mysel better than usual which means
Either I’m wrong or
It’s an important moment lol

Prax

it’s like leaping into cleaves of opportunity or something. rip through time and space to a possibility haaha

Johno

Interesting idea about compress in brain and extrude possibilities

Prax

like the “gestalt of time” or reality, gives you this picture of the possi ble

Johno:

What you mean by “cleaves” like slices, cleaved with knife

Prax

i think that’s what happens for you in rapid succession
as things morphs you catch glimpses of what can be or is true
cleaves like makes or takes a opening haha
i think te-id creates both

Johno:

Yeah
Present changes or past reinterpretations are like
Tiny train switches on 100 factors
Train switches turned a bit so actual impact is viewed as possible future state change

Prax

some seal swimming through collapsin coral reef haha

Johno:

Like when trump got elected
Vertigo for Entp
Throwing up
Looking in mirror like “what is going on?”
Realized I was not upset just had been very very wrong

Johno, some time later:

Imagine like 100 threads of living matter growing from left to right field of observation. So they grow kind of randomly but in general toward light source at right side of observation box.

Maybe they are various colors like pink or other colors under observation lights.

Present is a slice of these viewed flat. Just a bunch of dots

As those dots change I am interested in what that means for the trajectory of the whole series of threads

What caused the change? Someone moved the light up or down? Dots became thinner — Threads growing faster. Dots became thicker, threads growing slower. Dots converged—threads moving toward focused light. Dots dispersed—threads moving toward dispersed light. Those slides are present moment for me. Probably Si observation of past looks like this

The reality is that I only am seeing a slice and that is why the present seems least important of all moments to me

Bevahse In present I am tied to the worst possible perspective one can have! Subjective one!

So I spend most time conjecturing what is actually happening, not looking st the dots, and then when I understand certain future states I know where the dots will move

I don’t see individual being all that able to change the future just to align with it

Better I understand world better I can align (5w4?)

And profit/eat skittles/have orgasms/get hugs


#13

Ooh quote away! Someone needs to make use of my ramblings!
And yeah, being mirrors to one another, it takes a bit of self-awareness and mental dexterity to realise and navigate in reverse, but once you do you can flow in and out of Ni-Ne states and gain a better picture of everything.
I think much like ENTP is inversion of INTJ when it comes to function stack, ENFP is inversion of INFJ, so you get this kind of circus mirror effect from one another (although Fe-id in ENFP, I think, tends to make it that much harder to gain the self-awareness or objectivity until maturation?).

And until they recognize the mirroredness of one another, maybe each inverted pairing tends to feel the other one “has everything all backwards” or “looking at things/dealing with things the wrong way”.

Just to make the inversions/inside-out effects more clear, the “inner functions” are your type’s core “positive” functions, while the “outside” ones are shadows/mirrors:

INTJ
Ne-Ni — Te-Ti
Si-Se — Fi-Fe

ENTP
Ni-Ne — Ti-Te
Se-Si — Fe-Fi

INFJ
Ne-Ni — Fe-Fi
Si-Se — Ti-Te

ENFP
Ni-Ne — Fi-Fe
Se-Si — Te-Ti

i yam so funnie and talk in nothing but point form. someone needs to profit off this!!!


#14

Prax,

I’ve seen a lot of INTP-ENTP friendships that are long lasting and work very well, but no romantic relationships between the two. Do you think that combo works for romantic relationships?

It seems to me that the INTJ really appreciates the fun, excitement, creativity and intelligence that the ENTP brings to the table. But at the same time realizes that the flakiness, lack of stability, excess energy, etc will drive them crazy or make them unattractive as a life partner since INTJs can’t be “run over” and don’t have the same desire to please and alter themselves to fit into a relationship like an INFJ will.


#15

Yeah, I think you’re right, I think they make for good playmates but they kind of have a barrier to overcome to become longterm romantic parters. Maybe the mirror inversion distances them in a way? INFJ probably feel the same about ENFP. Some kind of living in parallel but communicating universes effect. So… very friendly instead. A glass separation so less likely to “mess each other up”.

Meanwhile, INTJ-ENFP and INFJ-ENTP are inverted on one axis (mirror dom-inf Ni-Ne and Se-Si) but merely “turned” on the other axis (flipped aux-tert Te-Fi and Fe-Ti)–this all makes sense to me visually using the car model diagrams above. That probably leads to the “different universe/genders but related species” kind of effect that leads to a complementary sexual compatability feeling!!! Kind of like “oh there is a wormhole between parallel universes where we can invade/infiltrate/meet one another!”, therefore sexy intercourses haha. This wormhole is like some vortex that sucks each other into the other’s universe, so you get that GROWTH and “the universe is so much bigger with you now” experience.

And yeah, I think to be more specific, ENTP may see INTJ as generally too rigid to have their wild adventures with while INTJ see ENTP as chaotic to their “plans” so they will keep one another at some distance. I have a feeling INTJ see ENTPs antics and while very amusing or informative, are wise to know to never do direct business with one (including the business of romantic partnership!) haha! But they sure love advising and watching one another at their own game.


#16

Ni deals with unknowns, absence, space, the areas between the lines. It deals with nothing. Hence it’s why it’s hard to understand.

Understanding (in the standard sense) implies categorising something, putting a box around something — that’s how meaning is established. The limits of something is formed and the essence of it is determined.

Ni deals with what this is not, but it is still a form of understanding/knowledge. So Ni-doms can just intuitively understand these things without clearing understanding it.

When I think others try to capture what Ni is or how Ni’s think they can’t do it because it means translating something that can’t be translated in words or even captured as an image. So how does an Ni see time?

I don’t think Ni actually consciously sees understands time in any manner at all. In fact it wouldn’t even occur to them to. I believe.

For example, I think that other people imagine Ni as a meditative state that Ni-doms go to where a sort of matrix like physics Einstein blah blah field is seen.

But Ni intuits things not as if they’re removed from whats going on, but with what’s going on. It’s never a removed process that’s different from ordinary living. — it just appears like that when Ni synthesises with Ti when someone of this type retreats to analyse stuff. But Ni is a process which is ongoing all the time in the back of the mind like osmosis. It just is.


#17

I think you’re right about this; I read a good post recently on reddit where an ENTP was basically saying “I just finally understood Ni a little bit because I experienced it.” And that’s been my experience too. I didn’t understand it at all until I hung out here long enough to accidentally experience it in myself a couple of times in glimmers. I think it’s operating at a more constant level but I just do not have any of the brain paths built out to like, triangulate it and understand what’s going on there. I just know I’ve kind of experienced it a little bit here and there since I started swimming in Ni dom spaces. But experienced it from self, not observation, really. And definitely lack capacity to describe, because I’ve hardly been there but perhaps even more so for the reason you described.