Ni dom: Leonine (INTJ) vs Sagittarian (INFJ) expression and use?


#1

Hi Prax, how would you describe the union of supporting an “a priori” hypothesis with “a posteriori” evidence? Because I feel like I engage in both the “a priori” and the “a posteriori” forms. Is this somewhat emblematic of a Sagittarius INFJ’s Ni?

Fuck you Kant!


INFP Id: Ni - roars and arrows
#2

Makes me wonder if maybe some INFP, who think they are INFJ or learn to see the usefulness of Saggitarian version of Ni, keep trying to engage in it as a dominant, not realizing it is not healthy for their cognitive makeup. Maybe this leads them to continual short circuits or self-sobotage and possibly depression.


#3

I think that’s what trailing Fe-feelers do! Ni seems to be instant prediction, an emerging of a truth or direction perhaps, and then Fe is used to continue reality checks. So not quite active exploration like Ne, but more… almost sonar?

lol I am not sure if what I am saying makes sense. I get the feeling INTJ Ni being more leonine is more “big vision! big picture!” and I have to try to explain a 5D “image” in words. Or maybe that is just me. I am unsure if Ni-dom is visual for other INTJ.


#4

That’s interesting! I originally thought that the dominant Ni-inferior Se duality encompassed the “a posteriori” form, while the “a priori” form was quintessentially Ti (given that Kant loved masturbating his dominant Ti. “I am a thinking thing” Jesus fucking Christ).

Ni dom is definitely overwhelmingly visual for me, if that’s any consolation. Couldn’t imagine an Ni-dom not leveraging the wealth of sensory information present in visual data unless they were blind.

And interesting how you say that Fe is used for the constant reality checks. I actually don’t see it that way at all. Rather, I see it as my Ti doing the reality checks in conjunction with the Ni-dom Se-inferior inductive process. I’ve only ever conceived of aux-Fe as my form of expression/means of abstracting outward into the world. So, rather than using it to fact-check, I use it to communicate or convey my knowledge in a public, transmissible medium. It’s how I exorcise the toxic collection of insight boiling within. What are your thoughts?


#5

I split the thread since this was going off topic and turning into its own thing! :smiley:

Well, I use Te as my reality check. “now see it in action! does it work!!”. My Fi is morality check, so… it’s quality-control “ok it works but is it a good thing lol”. I guess Tertiary is more quality control to me.

I think Se feeds into Ni possibly, but there’s some kind of chasm disconnect. That “information” usually isn’t properly translated for me, which is why I might have slow reaction times (and clumsiness) or hyperreact to sensitivities in the environment. But maybe it builds and manifests into Ni’s visions, like an alchemy of matter into spirit haha. But that is almost an unconscious thing… But everything works in tandem anyway. I don’t think it’s ever a clean this-then-that… Especially not with Ni… haha.

I think when we’re consciously trying to pursue our visions, it’s the aux we’re supposed to use to check for results, then tertiary for fine tuning. Personally, I feel like if I go Ni => Fi => Te, that leads to perfectionistic tendencies and then I end up doing nothing at all. Everything works in tandem though, so it’s almost never a clean this-then-that… especially with Ni involved, but it feels to me like this is how the basic “good” cycle should work for me.


#6

This is exactly how I see my dad do his research too… he first gets possessed by a grand vision… he shares his ideas with me sometimes and there’s always this gleaming look in his eyes… it’s a kind of wonder… like “omg if this were really true!”… this is probably Leonine Ni? The next step is always validating whether it works in real life, or atleast, that it can be proved factually… he is not so much into the logical structure of it as he is into proving that something “is really possible” or “is true”… If he starts thinking too much about what it means in a Ti or Fi sense it becomes paralyzing for him… use of Ti makes him think he doesn’t have enough info together and doesn’t know where exactly this new thing he has thought of will fit in the bigger picture… it makes him wary… Ti helps him in finding “the most elegant explanation” after he has found proof… and Fi… the only times I have seen it in action related to research was when some people were making him work on things he thought it wasn’t right to do or his job to do… he actually quit a lot of important committees because their ideologies were “wrong”… his moral sense is very strong but I think it guides him in picking what to do rather than helping him actually do the work…

Ni of either kind is definitely a priori… I still can’t make up my mind about anything being purely a priori… because, to me, intuition is a neurological response that has been wired into our brain by repeated previous experience… whether we are tapping into our own experiences in this life, or, experiences that have been collected over several lifetimes, or, the collective experiences of all living beings, the a priori availability of cause-effect information is necessary for Ni to exist…

And I think you’re right about Fe being used a posteriori​… Ni, to me, is useful if it’s​ inputs help in generating a harmonious environment… Ti helps in making sense out of Ni for personal thrills… But that should ideally be a very-post-process which should aim at developing road maps to guide future Ni use in order to achieve desired Fe effect more efficiently… Fi, should again, be ideally used as a moral compass to navigate the created road maps…


#7

Kant gets on my nerves!

He ends up sounding so full of himself because he tries so hard to not sound full of himself… If I could go back in time I would love to tell him, “Its okay dude! I get what you’re trying to say! You don’t have to bust your ass explaining how I should be reading the next few words you’re going to write… you can’t control what I choose to take away from them anyway!”… ugh… bloody Ti…


#8

Fucking Ti! I would punch it in the face if I weren’t so busying indulging it all the time! Argh!

Hm, maybe I should take a page out of your book. I always thought Ti was my reality check and quality control, and I have no clue what Fe’s for unless I’m doing something artistic or musical. Or, perhaps Fe is my reality check because I make sure that everything I do is in line with the human element or something along those lines. Does this mean I should just stop thinking and start doing? I’ve tried to tell myself over the years that I need to stop worrying about fucking up and just start doing, because I automatically won’t allow myself to fuck up anything I do if I’m the one doing it, if that makes any sense. For example, a lot of times I convince myself that I’m not in the right mood to draw, and that if I do draw, my lack of inspiration will fuck up the drawing. But then sometimes I force myself to draw, and during the process I find that I never let myself fuck up any aspect of the drawing no matter what state I’m in. And so the ultimate, idealized vision is always actualized in reality.

Jeez, I really need to start doing morning pages.


#9

Yes exactly!

This is Ni-Ti OVERTHINKING loop! Where you should just go Fe and PLAY! Ti will go over things as background process anyway. The “cpu” action working away while you’re focusing on the task at hand.

Just like I will have Ni-Fi loops when I should just Te and DO. Get the thing done, Prax… done is better than none… I will finesse with morality or emotional issues later (lol).


#10

Right, that’s what I’ve been thinking. My Ti is supposed to be a background quality control. But without any Fe action, there is no content for Ti to even apply its quality control to.

So, an analogy would be an assembly line, where Ti is the consistency and reliability of the assembly line, and Fe is what’s actually fed through the assembly line. Sure, Ti can ensure that the assembly process is perfect and quality control is second-to-none. But all of this doesn’t matter if there isn’t anything to feed through the assembly line, which is Fe content.

A perfect assembly line with nothing to feed through it is a purposeless assembly line. It can have the highest quality control standards of any assembly line, but this doesn’t matter if nothing is produced. It has lost its purpose, and an individual in an Ni-Ti loop will be discontent but not know why, and will try to continue to perfect her assembly line process.

Right, the assembly line is pointless if there is nothing to feed through it. If there is nothing fed through, nothing is produced. If nothing is produced, then unhappiness will ensue. So the only way to break the cycle of unhappiness is to just feed something through.


#11

Using Ti to explain the Fe solution huh? :stuck_out_tongue:

If it’s any consolation, I think you’ve got very strong Ti… must be hard to avoid Ti if you’re studying so much philosophy… but go do the Fe thing :stuck_out_tongue:


#12

Argh, stupid Ti!

But thank you, I will try to go and do the Fe thing :stuck_out_tongue:

I just feel that in this INTPized world of ours, no one takes me seriously unless I use my Ti. So that’s just (unfortunately) what I’ve learned to do.


#13

Yeah I’ve been wondering whether INFJ men feel excessive pressure to use their Ti, regardless of the INTPization…


#14

Yes, in my case.

It started at school, when I was around 9 or 10 and one of the more astute teachers recognised that hidden behind my gentle, quiet persona was a sharp analytical mind that even I was unaware of. My internal experience at that time was based around my dominant Ni; I loved exploring the fantastic worlds conjured up by my incredible imagination and the vivid dreams I had while asleep seemed more real than the waking world. I was fortunate enough to have an INFP father, who not only encouraged and supported my developing intuition, but actively fed my imagination with his gift for creative story-telling.

I was happy enough when I started attending school, I’ve never had any problems making friends and there was plenty of active play and creative activities to enjoy. My teachers were pleased at how easily and quickly I learned the basics of reading, writing and maths, but little did they realise how much I loathed the tedious rote-learning methods of the day. Thanks to my heroic Ni, I soon learned how to preserve my sanity from the relentless onslaught of endless repetition by dividing my attention in multiple directions. So a small part of my mind recited the alphabet or times tables or whatever, while another mental subroutine animated my body just enough to smile and nod as appropriate. Meanwhile, the majority of my young mind was free to adventure across the endless mindscape of my inner world.

But eventually, the astute teacher realised that I was a bit different from the other kids. It still greatly concerns me about the paucity of our education system that, before Mrs Noel, not a single teacher had ever wondered how a slow-moving, dreamy, inattentive boy such as me still managed to get good marks in every subject being taught.

Mrs Noel was not like the other teacher-drones however, and simply refused to let me continue to drift through school on remote control by making me attend extra tuition with the other “gifted” kids. At first, I wondered what on earth I was doing there, since I certainly didn’t feel very intelligent, but in hindsight her methods were exactly what I needed. After less than a year of the extra tuition, my grades went from good to excellent, and I could literally feel my intellect sharpening as my Ti function grew stronger and stronger. At some point, I was given an IQ test and scored over 140 (I don’t remember the exact score because it doesn’t actually mean a great deal to me!) which is supposed to qualify me as some kind of super-genius and is certainly more than enough to join Mensa if I was so inclined.

For the rest of my academic career, I was a straight A student and even began to enjoy helping some of the other, less gifted kids with their studies. I won a scholarship to a famous independent boys school at the age of 14, which spared me from having to attend the awful, rough, monolithic state school to which most of the kids in my neighbourhood were condemned (I grew up in a very poor working class suburb in South London). At the boys school I excelled in both the arts and sciences, but had to choose which to focus on when it was clear that I would be going on to study at University (the first child in my brainy but poor family to achieve this honour).

Clearly, I went with the sciences (Chemistry) and still work in a government laboratory to this day. I am eternally grateful to the wise Mrs Noel for pulling me out of my shell and showing me what I was capable of academically. But I now understand that I have paid a heavy psychological and emotional price for being pressured to develop and call upon my tertiary Ti for most of my academic and working life, instead of my natural, dominant Ni and auxiliary Fe. Part of me always knew that my highly praised intelligence (Ti) was actually not my preferred mental process, and discovering my true MBTI type to be INFJ was enormously validating and enlightening. Over the years, I’ve found many ways of compensating for the Ti demands of my job, but recently these no longer seem to be enough to provide the balance I so desperately need as I approach my mid-fifties. I’m finally starting to see a bit of light at the end of a very long, dark tunnel, but I am still working out the fine details of how to transition into a more healthy lifestyle without having a complete breakdown under the intense strain I’ve been enduring for many years. This site has been a lifesaver, quite frankly, and I owe an enormous debt of gratitude to Blake for his honest and invaluable advice to the INFJs of the modern world (and our fellow intuitive weirdos!)


#15

Stewart, you are such a gifted storyteller! The Showreel of Stewart’s Life was playing in my mind as I read your comment :smile:

If you could go back in time would you have changed​ your decision to pick Chemistry? If so, what would you have picked instead? If not, is it because you think there was a good reason for life to have played out this way?

Does your dissatisfaction arise from struggling with Fe(Fi)-Ti internal conflicts at work, or, from the fact that you weren’t able to find a balance and make enough time for your Fe pursuits?


#16

It is so hard to do that which is good for us…sooooooooo hard. So it is great when you can give yourself permission to swim again like a fish rather than walk like one.