Monkey see, monkey do = Sensors
Sensors cf Intuitors - what does intelligence and access to knowledge mean for each? (also many snipings and philosophical meanderings inside!!)
that’s just another way of saying they’re stupid lol
i said explain, not use metaphors.
which of your parents are sensor?
mom? dad? or both? or your siblings? only child?
hey, I’m a sensor. and we can be friends.
I’ll change your mind
I’m sure he can speak for himself but I doubt you can fundamentally change his mind. You’re obviously very perceptive and uncommonly intelligent supernokturnal, but the N/S divide is the most significant one there is I think. There are a couple of sensors whose intellect I respect, but they just don’t see things the same way. Like what RumDawg said to you now seems to me to be a very adequate explanation, meaning that sensors are like sheep, that they have no real original ideas, that they just follow along to the beat of wider society (whether they are with the flow or against it, they are definitely immersed in it). He could mean some of what I said, or all of it, or more, but he has shared the essence of his contention.
The ability to trade metaphor or symbol to communicate is a pretty big deal. Metaphor encodes a lot of information, the sheer diversity of which may be lost with spelling it out. While this form of communication is by no means inaccessible to sensors, they do seem like they need to put in a bit of extra work for it. It doesn’t come completely naturally to them. Therefore to someone who is used to communicating in this fashion anyone unable to do so will come across as “dumb” regardless of their other merits and abilities.
generally speaking, I think it’s true.
but I would rather point to the function than the people.
because sensors prefer using sensory functions.
but when sensors tap into their intuitive functions, I would say they can be just as original and innovative.
i have love/hate relationship with metaphors.
it’s because one can speak of it, and many interpret differently.
of course the “essence” of metaphor is there. I get it.
but I think that’s what Ni is in some sense.
they tell you the essence, but no details.
so when I saw the phrase "monkey see, monkey do"
i disposed the fact that sensors are sheep. Just following the trend of things. because that’s not now I see sensors anyways. maybe introverted sensors. I can see the sheeplikeness.
but with the SP types, I’ve never associated them with being a sheep. nor do they lack originality.
yeah, I get what you mean in this statement.
my wife asked : what’s intuitive good at?
me: they have great original ideas.
so if you measure intellect from intuitive’s perspective and say sensors are dumb because they don’t see it from our perspective, and they don’t have original ideas.
then sure, you’re right.
but on the other hand, if I measure stupidity from ESTP’s perspective, I will look at intuitive’s lack of survival instinct and impracticality. And probably call intuitives stupid.
for always being in their head and not taking real actions to change things.
but see, that’s my perspective.
but if we have to generalize intelligence and categorize them into a mbti group, sure I’d say NTs are the intellects.
stupidity is not measured by intellect.
being wise and smart is different from being intelligent.
but that also depends on perspective.
so what I’m basically saying is that I can see and understand why sensors can be "dumb"
but I can also see why intuitives can be “stupid” too.
so i can respect and appreciate one answer. but that’s not the only answer.
know what I mean?
I have to say, I don’t agree that sensors are like sheep myself except perhaps in a good way. Intuitives are a bit alienated, even the people oriented ones. You mentioned about SPs, I tried to cover them in my earlier reply by mentioning “with the flow or against it”. Even when a sensor is in opposition to societal consensus, ultimately their fundamental terms, axioms for existence etc. are dictated by society. They are rebels on society’s terms; badboys. For intuitives this comes internally more so, they are endogenous personalities, self-motivating and requiring higher motivation. Their rebellion is more psychosis, creative or ideological; madmen. There is overlap of course, everyone is a product of their environment and everyone has access to intuition.
Another thing, though only a bit related. I have a pet peeve about people messing with the definition of intelligence. The simple definition of intelligence is intellectual problem solving ability. There are other words for other qualities, like creativity, or wisdom. Referring to these as intelligences muddies the definition of intelligence and does away with the value of the concept. In simple parlance, someone with high intelligence (or intellectual problem solving ability) is smart and someone without is stupid. By this bar, sensors cannot be stupid in themselves, regardless of whether there are certain group differences overall. More colloquial or personally subjective uses of smart, like street smart etc. refer to other concepts. Likely the earlier categorization of sensors as stupid is a personally subjective use of the word, so you’re right to attribute it to his perspective. That is also why I mention this is unlikely to change, as nothing will change his overall personal subjective experience of sensors, exceptions perhaps only serving to reinforce the rule.
that’s if you’re looking at it from Si’s perspective, then yes.
but SPs don’t go against Societal rule purposefully.
they just do what they want. not because ‘oh that’s the norm? I’m gonna go against the society’s norm because I’m a rebel and a badboy!’
what problem are you referring to?
math? relationship? financial?
i know what intelligence means. but problem solving ability goes beyond whatever you’re referring to.
you have to define problem. What’s a problem?
a sudoku puzzle? marital issues?
this is such a black and white statement.
again. what is this “problem” are you referring to?
even if you’re referring to math, there are so many different types of math. algebra? geometry? physics? trigonometry? calculus? What?
we’ll see about that.
if he’s INFJ, then I’m seeing beyond his words.
I’m seeing how sensors have affected his life, his upbringing, his psyche.
why he doesn’t compliment anyone and such.
i believe there’s something more to it than just that one statement.
Here are some comments of mine from the old Russell Brand thread that are relevant to this discussion:
"As for my brother, he only really began to shine after he had left school. He took menial jobs to support himself whilst he attended night classes to complete his education. Don’t be misled by the hoary old cliché that correlates high IQ with the intuitive types: my unassuming ISFP brother is at least as “traditionally” intelligent as I am. He is as capable as me when it comes to learning and understanding abstract theory, but his incredible Sensing-based ability to accurately store and recall all the tiny details is something I will never be as good at.
I would guess that he has developed his tertiary Ni to an unusually high degree for an ISFP type. He works as a highly regarded IT systems project manager for a large multinational corporation, and his salary package (commensurate with his position) is so far above anything I could even dream of as a (supposedly intelligent) forensic scientist that it is almost a joke."
It’s not necessarily subjective. It’s my opinion of the meaning, but that doesn’t mean my opinion doesn’t coincide with the true meaning of the word.
But this gets to the heart of the problem, what is considered ‘intelligent’ and if cognitive types aligns to this in some way.
You mention the ‘simple definition’ but this definition is simply a common one, or the ruling opinion.
Intelligence in modern contemporary times is usually defined as some sort of problem solving capability, as you say, or the ability to do calculate, memorise, define, logically defend, persuade, solve, do, etc. etc. It’s essentially mathematical and practical in nature.
But I define intelligence as wisdom, or the apprehension and understanding of wisdom. Wisdom in the Greek sense and not the New Age spiritualist.
Which means knowledge of ends/nature/essence.
I.e. the world of forms. Essentially a world of logical thinking beyond what is natural for most sensors.
So my definition of intelligence almost precludes sensors from the get go.
The senses always lie, while a metaphor has a greater resemblance to reality than a mere collection of details ever could.
Sensors affect my daily life by making bad decisions and electing bad politicians.
Anyone know the difference between a politician and a flying pig?
for 10 smarty-pants points
One makes for good target practice while the other’s a flying pig?
One’s a windy boar…
well here’s another error in metaphor.
you stated one thing, and fallot explained to me in one way, believing he knew what the metaphor meant,
and then you had to come in and correct him on your original meaning of it.
EXACTLY as i predicted.
that’s the flaw in metaphor. everyone misinterpret. sensors or non-sensors. shit happens all the time.
i think metaphors are easier understood when they’re in same wavelength of each other.
if ESTP told me a metaphor, it would probably resonate with me more than INFJ’s metaphor.
same goes with INFJ, they can speak INFJ language and probably understand each other better.
yes. even in Hebrews, a ‘stupid’ is definied by their action and attitude, not their ability or talent.
so the opposite of stupid will be ‘wise’ for them.
well, in that sense, i can see where you are coming from .
sensors are usually the troublemakers in society. especially SPs.
and their desires for physical things are stronger than intuitives, usually, so they tend to do a lot of stupid shit that causes chaos.
but when it comes to ideological stuff, intuitives are more likely to buy into bullshit occult practices.
i’m not saying all of them are bullshit. but there are definitely some bullshit practices that are just crazy.
and if you try to reason and say something like each practice defines their soul or someshit, then i have nothing else to say haha
like for instance, in different religions, i see a lot of xNFs, and they are so gung-ho about their religious ways.
and of course there are thousands of religion, and they all claim they have the right one,
and they all claim, they have the true knowledge of [quote=“RumDawg, post:26, topic:412”]
i think that’s a bit delusional thinking.
and you said intuition is NEVER wrong, and Stewart, who lived probably more than twice of your lifetime, has said he’s been wrong many times.
i’ve witnesses for myself where intuition can be off.
now, let’s not google ‘intuition’ and inflate the definition and say ‘but intuition is liable and truth’ or whatever.
i know this because i always ask the intuitives “what does your intuition say about this? tell me your gut feeling”
and i see many times ‘why’ they even feel that way.
but you see, in this ‘sensory’ world.
life can be easily maneuvered and manipulated depending on how quick and effectively you take action.
for INxx types, i can see why they would think their intutition is right.
if you see a car going straight to a tree, your gut might say 'oh, it’s gonna crash’
okay, i used a very basic example but i know it can get more complicated than that.
but for sensors, like me, i ‘ignore’ the danger sign and maneuver my way to find loopholes and get out of problems.
so for me, i HAVE to live always in the moment to solve problems.
i cannot imagine thinking about multiple possibilities or even worrying about them.
i have to make sure i’m in full control of every situation so i can change the outcome the way i want it to.
recently, one INFJ friend texted me saying "it’s over, i know it. it’s all over."
talking about his breakup with his gf.
but they’ve been together for almost 4 years and every time they break up he always say something like that, insinuating he’s hurt and he misses her a lot. and i always help him 'get her back’
and those thoughts disappear like it never even came.
but we can say, 40 years later, he won’t be with that girl, so essentially, he was right.
no, absolutely not.
life is not always about the 'end’
seize the moment.
anyways. it’s still all about perspective.
if you start seeing from other’s people perspective, you will understand better and think that your ways are not the only way that’s out there that ‘works well’
but i appreciate you explaining why you thought sensors are dumb.
and from your perspective, i totally agree. hahah
this made me laugh:)
(moral: don’t look directly into the sun).
that’s pretty good!
The letter “f”