Si and the devilish function


#1

I was checking the comments in this and remembered that @Blake gave a hint at how Si is experienced by Ni-doms.

He explains Si as the total lost of the dominant. But wouldn’t that be the inferior? How is the opposite to the inferior a bigger threat to the dominant?

I am focusing on Si because I’m refering to Blake’s comment but I mean it for every type.

This could be of use too. So, I relate Si with the specific, routine, and self preservation. Both Ni and Si are points, but Si is A point while Ni is THE point. It could be then that the difference between Si and Se for Ni is that, while Se allows you to see Ni (Se converging on the middle of the circle), Si is complete obliviousness of that Ni center; would that translate in focusing on a detail so much that it becomes all that matters, not allowing access to THE point Ni is concerned with? According to Blake, the inferior is the function you can see but cannot live in and the dominant, the one where you live but cannot see. Would the devilish function be the one you can’t inhabit but does not allow to see the dominant either?

Thoughts. Have you experienced it, in yourself or someone around you? Are we entering the field of mental disorder here?


How do we use our 7th and 8th function?
#2

I’d have to think about this more!
Si is a bit hard for me since my memory tends to be a bit blurry when it comes to episodic memory (memories of how things happened, events) and a lot of specific details can be missing or magnified.
I guess that does make it seem like I can’t live that comfortably in that function. Maybe it makes me fairly nitpicky as well, but frustrated by it?

I have experienced clinical depression before, but I don’t even really remember how that felt or what was going on in my head either! lol It seems my life experiences are very much one blur to the next if I don’t have any real interest in them or concrete documentation like art to mark the mental timeline.

Maybe the Si as the 8th function is hard to pin down for INJs and usually when one engages in it, it becomes destructive, like fixation or rumination, but once you are released, you don’t even know what happened or why, making memory unstable. It feels removed an unconnected with everything else in that sense, maybe?


#3

Urghh, it was only a matter of time before the ugly spectre of Si in dominant-Ni types reared it’s ugly head in this forum.

Si for me is the most challenging and difficult of all the 8 functions. Others have named the 8th function as “Demonic” or “Devilish” for most types, and this is a good description of the way I experience Si.

John Beebe once provided this description of demonic Si (8th function for INFJ and INTJ):

"forgetting peoples names, unorderliness, hallucinations, Others ask:"Have you been in this body for long?"

I knew he was onto something here, as I’d already posted this piece long before I found Beebe’s description:

"If Heroic (dominant) Si excels at remembering things, then demonic Si excels at forgetting things!

I once forgot my own mother’s name whilst introducing her to one of the senior managers at work. I think I mumbled something like: “and this is my mother, whose name has temporarily escaped my mind…” before turning bright red and wishing I was dead."

And here’s a link to an old (2004) discussion I initiated on this very topic on another forum. My username at the time was Apollanaut:

I was going to add something else but it’s already slipped my mind. Not to mention, I’ve “forgotten” that I’m at work and have to go and actually DO some right now!


#4

I can relate to what you wrote on memory. Memory enhances when it has a big number of stimuli surrounding the concept to remember, right? Try to recall any given word, like strawberry, by only its definition; if you have the shape, it will be easier; if you add the taste, easier, and so on.

So Ni would provide a network where lots of those stimuli are interconected in patterns strange to other types, but useful for us. We can’t compete on remembering the actual strawberry for its own sake (yes, I’m eating some now haha) but we can compete on remembering all the things the strawberry means (I don’t know if that is the right word). My brother, whom I cannot type but has strong Si, can remember the underwear he was using any given day, when I can barely remember where I left my glasses (and then I remember I don’t use glasses anymore), because that’s too earthly a thing to remember. I guess I will always lose my phone, my keys and my headphones fifty times a day no matter how much effort I put into it.

Could it be that all introverted intuitive types see the same relationships when they access this network, as you call it in your older post, and differences relate to the specific language they are using? In that case, religions would be one of those languages, explaining why areas that don’t seem to have a direct historical link share almost twin myths. Emerson said somewhere that the greatness of an author is perceived only when he reflects the thoughts the reader had already contemplated, something that could be related to Ni too. The problem, then, would be that Ni cannot access a language itself but needs T and F functions (language is an emanation of judging functions, right?). And the difference in those functions is very visible. So we are bound to isolation.

But what if Si was the only thing left for an Ni-dom? Yesterday I saw a film, thanks to synchronicity, that I think made me grasp it a bit better. It is called The Turin Horse (yes, after Nietzsche’s anecdote), it follows a father and his daughter during the course of six days, where all the same actions are repeated in the same order; however, even though the events are almost the same, the film is the story of creation backwards. Routine leading to Disintegration (I don’t recommend it anyways, it was boring as hell).

In that situation, you have the strawberry and you are told that it is what it is and that’s it. All conections have been removed. It is the strawberry. It is red, it has a shape like a heart (but no, it is not LIKE anything else, it just has the shape it has), it has a taste, it has seeds all over it, it is slightly coarse, and I can eat it, goodbye (at this point I would have to stop eating!).

Also, something you said on your post in Book Club, but let me answer to that here because I think is of interest: you said you enjoy certain Se activities, like swimming or dancing. When I started writing this I thought that the inferior should be the hardest threat to the ego; but it’s not, and you show that enjoying Se activities. When I engage in those, I tend to act in a rather extreme way -and it has caused me health problems-, and moreover, when I try to remember those activities I see myself from outside, like if my consciousness had run away from my body and was contemplating it do something. It happens in my dreams as well. I want to engage in Se activities again because I think I find them healthy…but I guess as long as there is some Fe involved, that’s why I’d like to dance; but I don’t have the confidence, I feel my body is some tool I am manipulating but which is not a part of me, and that’s why I don’t feel the limits in the same way as sensors. What is “objectively” too little for a Se-dom can appear as too much for me, and viceversa. The question is, did it take you long to gain confidence in that field?

Hey @Prax , about being nitpicky, I thought that could be due to inferior Se? For example, I can barely stand the sounds of other people eating, for example. Or sick people’s, they make me sick too. I don’t know, I have very little knowledge of the functions, but I’m finding Si specially tricky.


#5

Wow how can one remember the underwear one has on. Amazing.


#6

What is this “Underwear” you speak of?


#7

@lunar @Stewart yes, he remembers the underwear he wore in specific dates, and not because he chooses carefully, besides a myriad of silly facts he seems extremely proud of telling. We could be talking about a travel we did and he would be like: yes, you bought the tickets on March 21 and the plane was half an hour delayed, the woman you had by your side was wearing a red blouse.

And for some reason I find that extremely disgusting :joy:


#8

I actually find it physically painful to be on the receiving end of an Si-style monologue of pedantic trivia and excruciatingly detailed factoids. Within microseconds I’ll be scanning desperately for an escape route or trying to come up with some feeble excuse to flee the scene: “I’m sorry, but I have to go pluck some stray nose-hairs…”

But more often than not, the perpetrator of this appalling verbal abuse has carefully selected a location with no easy exits for their victim to flee the scene. So, when faced with the prospect of listening to a 45 minute lecture on the history of Victorian sewage systems (and yes, that has actually happened to me!), my only option is to psychically escape to my happy place via Astral Projection.

Once I’m safely outside my body, the droning monotone fades into an inconsequential background humming, while I’m free to explore the wonders of my own imagination.

A teeny-tiny part of my conciousness stays behind to nod and smile when appropriate, and to alert my astral form when it’s safe to return home. And the weird thing is the other person invariably says something like:

“You’re such a good listener! Most people rudely interrupt me and run away before I’ve finished…”


#9

Some istjs isfjs esfjs will really share lots of detail. I struggled yesterday a little bit talking to an esfj. Very sweet person. I liker her very much. But too much detail about the days. You have to do something with your face while listening. But glazing eyes is hard to hide.


#10

@puck I think it’s both from Se and Si. It’s hard to cleave the two sometimes because it’s like two sides of a coin! haha

For example, I am irritated by this:

SEA OF GREEN but ONE green is slightly brighter! Erika, Wendy, UPLOAD A DIFFERENTIATING AVATAR!! :dizzy_face:

I believe this is an Si nitpickyness. Something is a slight off/askew. Messes a bit with my identification/recall of a person. Not so much that I hate green, but that one of them is a slight brighter. lol In the end, it’s meaningless/pointless to care that much, but I am still annoyed. Small details like that annoy me or take up too much brainspace. Maybe it tickles too much my Ti id like extraneous information that i try to grasp even when there is nothing to grasp. Does the 8th wormhole into the 6th? Hmmmmmm!


#11

@Prax, know what I think of when I see this screen shot? Your coordinates. Blue zone in Canada, baby. Then I think…hmm she said she rides the buses and is around a lot of people on these buses. So not too north. I wonder how far you are from Niagara… French doesn’t seem to have any influence in your communications, so I say not near Montreal, but closer to Toronto. A suburb of Toronto is my guess.

And it’s a shame you told me to change my avatar. I do the opposite of what people tell me usually. Don’t cut my hair - CUT! You can’t do that - DONE! :sheep: