STELLAR MAZE DISCUSSION FORUM

Sun, Moon, Physics, and, Glitches in the Reality Code

I’m having a breakthrough. Or maybe it’s just that yummy Cookie Blue seeping into my bloodstream. Man I missed this cannabaic headspace.

Sun is linear, Moon is cyclical. The Sun is central to the terral system. But: it is not central, and only merely fundamental, to the lunar system. From the perspective of the Earth, Luna goes through phases. She seems to cycle. Why can’t she ever move on? Thinks Terra.

Ahahaha. Moon type knows what Terra might forget - The Sun is always leaving. From the Terral perspective where Sun is central, Sol seems reliable and everpresent, even if only contacting one side at a time. What does Sol see? An invisible gravity source, a black hole or a dark sun, of interest. And planets following Sol.

Man, what is Luna saying every night?? “Don’t forget Sol. Notice that Sol is still there, even if you cannot perceive directly.”

Hey this is a question of interest: Who says Sol sends the light? What if it is all Luna’s light? And Sol is but a black hole. A representation of the highest concentration of light absorbed. And temperature is the friction of Luna’s fabric essence interacting with the elements, on it’s path towards Sol the Hole?

What Are The Implications!

First, we notice that there are assumptions in the prevailing model and the one represented here. Then the simulated physical sequence of elaboration, in thought experiment, What is a Sun type and what is a Moon type, and why would one have priority over another when both are so necessary to the Terral experience of life? What is a psyche without this context? It would be but a thought. Unreal.

Planetary Molecules. Astrology Meets chemistry. But why? Because what is psychology without the chemical component? MB aspecting astrology in your brain constellations absolutely requires the traversal of chemical structures.

Haha, boom, I like that phrasing. It’s funny but true.

And Molecular Galaxies. What are those super big and complex chemical compounds? Or should we call them compositions? With Music we have Timing, with Geometry there is Spacing, with Spherics we have Timing and Spacing. Like a celestial harmony, which at no point ever excluded the Molecular Galaxies interacting in the psychosoma, never said no to the chemistry of joy, of love, of sadness, of anger, of sexuality, of hunger, of craving, of nausea.

Woah, now. Hold your horses. Hold the damn pegasi. What is an identity but a crystal galaxy in the cosmos of the brain?

What is a Sun Type, a Moon Type? But an angle or aspect or simply just a beautiful facet on the gemstone of this or that personality? One geometry, please! Fresh to the order. Fresh to death.

The spherical harmonics of cycles, and lines, and lines of cycles, and cycles of lines. Ones and Zeros, Exes and Oh-noes! Mahahaha

Anyway, ENTP feels nice to be. It’s chill. And INFJ moon, like poetry. Poetry meets physics, what are the fucking odds? Not that, not the poetry meets physics, but some other hidden side of my mind that is suggesting associations to me now. How did someone express the principles of physics in poetry? And the ghastly image of the physics of things was not poetic in the slightest, but the Gnosis was delivered via poetry. How???

Grrrrr that’s making me a little angry. I wanna know. But I’m gonna let it go because I don’t have the stomach to go back! C’mon, there’s something nice about people who don’t want to go deep. Who never go deep. Who wants to go deep to discover that life is a horror? Oh man I’m rambling, but anyway, the breakthrough!

Sun is linear and Moon is cyclical, but only from the perspective of Earth. I’d say from Moon’s perspective Moon would probably call herself Periodic. Moon would say that Sun is “intermittent”. Wait hold up. That’s just a placeholder, for a better word to arrive soon.

Ultimately, Earth is most attracted to Sun. Moon is most attracted to Earth. Yet Moon is complementary to the Sun, therefore it is Harmonious.

Okay at some point later I’m gonna have to figure out what this has to do with ENTP sublimities.

Yeah keep doing morning pages, not porning mages, mister non. :unamused:

It’s so interesting to me that you are writing that as if you just discovered who you are. So interesting. How can it be? Has no-one in your life embraced your entp-ness? I guess you are very young though. I keep forgetting people here are half my age.

Amen to that.

But, but, but… I must see what’s down there. :pleading_face:
Don’t mind me. :zipper_mouth_face:

I think I’ve been down there so many times that I’m in such an UP mode. I’m in a determined mode actually. So much determination at the moment. Turning into a real looney bin and liking it more.

Keep it up then! :wink:

Yeah it’s both or more interpretations expressed together. My ENTPness :smirk: didn’t get a lot of love, nope.

But that’s a bit incomplete for a view, because I had considered ENTP for main type before I initiated my knight’s tour through the temperaments, among others. It always seemed like a neutral possibility, which could have been a clue I suppose.

There was a couple things that caused me to shy away from it, such as, I need to be a productive members of society, somehow. NeTi seems like rolling the dice with that a bit. Maybe I am productive, but if I am I will make a big impact. And maybe I never make an impact, but I will have a lot of fun somehow.

edit: oh the point of this ramble was to say there is another - also valid - interpretation where I am simply reporting observations of my experience

I must seem like a little kid to you. Thanks for noticing me and giving me some attention :blush:

16 pieces in a chess game on a 64 tile board. One slot per temperament. One attribute per slot. The constants and the variables define a function. Whether dominant, tertiary, id, auxiliairy, or other wise, this is constants. The variable is: which modality is parsed through the framework.

Of course, the inversion is also possible. Perhaps it is the functions which are static and the placements which are dynamic.

In other words, is it like a Rubix Cube with 64 nodes, and the perspective roams around the vertices like a spirit hovering over the waters of the deep?

Or, is it like an engine that takes inputs and outputs, receiving thought, feeling, sense or otherwise and delivering the interpretation? Or both? All of the above?

Moon is Queen? Sun is King. Moon is strongest piece in the game. Yet King is indispensable. Queen is dispensable in a chess game. Knight is ace, must be like an auxiliary function, perhaps like a Rising type. The Knight both provides the best service to support the Queen, and is best at eliminating the enemy Queen.

“Never catalogue the 64 attributes of a void”.
Why not?
“Everything will become boring”.
Oh yeah.

Octopuss.

what the heck is a Fi superego, and how might an ENTP get at those Fi minimums?

Edit!

Fi is relatively unchanging feeling compared to all the shifts of Fe
-Blake

Very helpful. Fi is more static, Fe is more dynamic. Fe temptation might be like giving Feeling full free reign but quickly turns to chaos (unless railing against systematic constraints, perhaps Te id, but still havicious).

Fi-Fe relationships might be analogous to constants and variables. Sort of like, Fe is surface level bubbling waves, while Fi is undercurrents. Or perhaps, there’s a better metaphor. Fe is water, Fi is ice?

Well anyway, I was thinking that the Te-Fi opposition might be that Te id drags into feeling trapped or contrained, and perhaps Fi superego would be something loose, but it is still superego, which I understand to be like a “higher self expression” of sorts, or a “self parent” attitude. Then Fi would be something of a constraint even as opposed to Te constraints but what does it constrain?

Constraint is a terrible term to use here. I don’t mean it in any negative sense. More like “framework”. So is Fi framing Fe? To avoid slipping into the tertiary temptation? Or is Fi framing Ti?

Maybe both? I think most probably it is that Superego frames Tertiary to “reign it in” if it is getting out of hand. Fi is Black King to my Fe White Knight. Ahhhh shoot. So cheesy :face_with_hand_over_mouth:

But anyway the metaphoria is for thought experiment’s sake, to help explore the concepts. The most important thing I think I learned is that Fi is more stable / continuous / constant than Fe, which is dynamic / changing / variable.

Yes yes, feelings are not code! But they do have logic. I respect that.


Contextual framing:

All truly wise thoughts have been thought already thousands of times; but to make them truly ours, we must think them over again honestly, until they take root in our personal experience.

— Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

This cognitive framing is very helpful. Everyone should be an ENTP at least once or twice, I think.

Joking!

Anyway, two things simultaneously come to mind for this topic, makes me want to synthesize it somehow but I think that is a trend away from Ti aux, which respects topic categories. So what do I do? Do I ramble one post (what I feel like doing) or do I post twice, once for each topic?

I worry because I think I might forget the second one after delving into the first. Also, I wonder if this is a Te id conundrum for me. Here’s what I’ll do.

I will list the topics

  • Is MB typology a Ti framework perspective of Fi? If Fi is soul (as suggested by Blake in the article I will finish reading at some point) then Fi is psyche, meaning psychology (science of the soul, or study of the soul) is really all about Fi. Personality types each are all a variation of Fi. Their definitions are discerned with Ti. Put otherwise, each individual (or particular) MB temperament is an Instance of Fi, with some degree of pattern and continuity which makes it possible to”study” the type and learn new things about an individual psyche’s tendencies. Then what is Fe? Perhaps, the holistic view of the temperaments, or even their inter-type relationships.
  • I rambled already. Geez
  • Ti is architectural, I think, and definitely categorical, taxonomical
  • What is the difference between personality Typology versus Topology? (And Typography and Topography?) maybe the Ologies are perceptual and the Graphies are judgery
  • I need to think. I NEED it. I didn’t notice this before today. Interacting, I do notice the facial expressions and body language. Maybe I seem displeased or upset. Or just cold? And the urge is there, to diffuse things. To feeeeel and express, which will change their faces to happier pictures and the tone of voice to brighter sounds. But maybe they are doing this because we’ve trained each other that way. They think I want to see and hear that, which I do. But not just because I want it, but because they are truly joyful. But I have so much to think about. Every time they come to interact I have to put everything on pause. I cannot multitask this, I have definitely tried a million times. And they’re not interested in the stuff I think about, so it’s not like we could even talk about it or something. The conversations are all about mundane things and TikTok videos. I know they want to connect and relate. I also want to, but with such misaligned interests there can only be irrelevancy or fakery. And fakery. I can pretend to care about a tiktok video I don’t understand and they can pretend to listen to me about what gets me excited, and we can pretend we get along well, and we do, but we are strangers in the final analysis. I do get tired of this dynamic, it is so stale and boring, but I will keep doing it anyway because I’ve tried mixing it up all kinds of ways. It saves more energy to just play along. And somehow, I’ll have to carve out the time to do my thinking and improve my plans even if I go to sleep in the afternoon and wake up in the middle of the night.

Notes from Stellar Maze materials


Fi undoes Ti and vice-versa.

Fi superego minimums undo Ti auxiliary thinking? That’s interesting, is it like the ability to backtrack in thought to go down another line of thinking, or is it something more directly oppositional, dismantling the thought entirely?

And Ti tertiary undoes Fi id. The vehicle is maybe Fe? Fe expression, like morning pages, pulling Fi toxins out of the id and sublimating them into Ti crystalline insights (thanks to Ni guiding Ti to the essence of things)…hmmmm, maybe maybe.

Then, what about the other way? Fi superego, how does it relate to tertiary Fe? It is not that Fi is being sublimated. Rather, Fi acts like an anchor, or a beacon or something. Maybe a lighthouse for a ship in the night? What is Ti doing in this dynamic? Ohhhhhh I think I just had an intuition. I looked away from the computer, up and to the right, had an abstract vision of something I can’t describe (the representation, anyway) and this insight was! Lol I almost forgot it by going meta

A phrase. Or a set of words or something. Like a catch phrase. Intuitively, it comes to me. And if I write it down, I can look into it deeper at a later point (but not too deep). After I comprehend it, I am able to “slip it in” or express it during Fe mode. And it works. It doesn’t always work, though. There is a key element which i think is Fi superego

The way I remember it is i anchor it into my internal feeling. It’s like, memory without memory. I record the relation (Ti) between things, not the actual content or data (Si). And the feeling itself, is a bodily sensation, as all feelings are. But I record it into my internal feeling and then I can remember it forever and ever. Except, I can’t remember it on demand. It only arises during Fe expression. Then I remember it and I know exactly where it belongs in the expression.

But if I overdo that Fi superego, and record too much, or too much detail, or too much personal investment into expressing that insight, then it goes south very quickly. Nearly always, going too much with this thing, leads to embarrassment, regret, miscommunication, that sort of thing.

Fi minimums makes sense. Introverted relationship data. The data arises abstractly, working with Ti, but anything and everything can go back to ZERO at any point. The only way it doesn’t, is if I record it. And I don’t record sensations, I record feelings. That’s how my memory works, and why it sucks, it’s completely impractical.

Lol I started to write you a long response, but you figured it out.

Yes. But specifically, giving the right amount of weight to your own role and experience of said relationship, not forgetting or overindulging. Lean too far into Fe and there is mimicry, forgetting the self. Lean too far into Fi superego and

I find that too much Fi superego paired with Fe tert equals projection of feelings onto the other person. Its like the more Fi there is, the harder it is to see it.

I think about it as superego function limits id and tert, when functioning properly. Too little and the id can take over the dom and masterbate with the tert. Too much, and the same thing happens, but in the negative, as the strength of the function is not enough to handle the emphasis.

Back to Blake’s planetary associations, heathy superego is the right amount of Saturn, limiting. Unhealthy superego is Neptune, an illusory ideal, which leads to an unhealthy expression of Saturn, punishing.

There is an association between the inferior and the superego I’ve been thinking about a lot, but I never write it down and always lose the words. Later.

Fe itself is a mimicry function. Fi, as an opposition, is like the essence of an individual, emphasis on authenticity and staying true to oneself. Fe is more about fitting in, harmonizing and getting along. Not rocking the boat. Not standing out too much. Harmonists, not soloists. You ever hear a harmony with hearing the Alto louder than the Bass, Tenor and Soprano? It doesn’t work.

Hmm, I’m not sure what you mean there. Would you elaborate/clarify when you have the time?

Very interesting. Your interpretation of this Fi superego and Fe tertiary dynamic seems to be couched in psychosocial terms. I can see how it would play out in that kind of setting, but I think, based on my current understanding anyway, that neither Fi nor Fe belong in the social setting for ENTP. Maybe Fe, but not a whole lot. Mostly Ti should be fine. Fi superego, how I am thinking about it, specifically referring to what I mean by “introverted relationship data” is inclusive of (but not exclusive to) interpersonal relationship data. However, even if it were a record of interpersonal stuff, it would be an impersonal record.

Yeah that makes sense. So I see that the tertiary temptation pulls towards the id, I would call this a psychological vector. What superego can do is form a triangle to balance it out, but the strongest outcome is not 2dimensional, but 3dimensional. If using the hidden strength Auxiliary, it should form a tetrahedral, which is balanced and sustainable. The shape of the psyche itself would operate in the context of the dominant function (the operating system) in a way, like a BIOS, diverting flow into each of the 4 vertices (aux, id, tert, superego) dynamically.

In this model, the inferior function (what is impossible) , the neutral function (what is irrelevant) and the hell function (what is unnecessary) are disengaged.

We are agreeing and you are just elaborating, yes?

Yes, I will need to think on how to clarify.

I do tend to take this angle.

I guess I think the superego always belongs in the social setting? It’s an introjection of the expectations of the other, parents, society, etc, so that function will be vital for guiding social behavior (but really all behavior). The aux is the method of transmission. A quick analogy would be aux=boat and superego=rudder, but it’s a little too rudimentary.

Wow I don’t even know how to conceive of Fi as impersonal. Its hard for me to think of any of the introverted functions as impersonal. From most to least it would be Fi-Si-Ni-Ti, but all still subjective.

I think I was understanding “introverted relationship data” as the introjection and metabolism of experience with others, quantified by Fi, which is, simply, how you feel. But to recall/revisit those experiences they would come through Ti, so I guess that could make it impersonal.

?

I think of this as what is uninteresting, becomes relevant if necessary to support the Dom, like a kind of inversion to gain perspective/check accuracy.

I really don’t agree with this description of the demonic function, find it very limiting and over-simplistic. It’s only hellish when it becomes completely conscious, or is experienced high up the conscious stack of another person. Even in relationship it isn’t necessarily hellish, more just grating and annoying, but can also be creative (like an inconjunct aspect, I liked that description from Blake). I like the socionics description of the 8th placement as role function, a subconscious complementary support of the dominant. I also like Beebe’s description of it, as a kind of supercharged inferior. He calls it daimon, coming from the outside and can act maliciously or benevolently depending on the growth needs of the psyche.

Not quite. If Fe is a mimicry function then it wouldn’t be a matter of “leaning too far” that would be resulting in mimicry. It would be mimicry itself, though I suppose that mimicry is only one aspect of harmoniousness / adapting to everyone else. Then, I suppose we are agreeing now, though before I was expanding the concept without concluding towards either agreement or disagreement.

Maybe I am misunderstanding Fi superego, then. It’s possible that my intuition was wrong, it seemed like an Ni type of implication (assuming I am correctly detecting the operating function that delivered the insight). However I would put superego as an introjection of God’s expectations of me. I do care about the expectations of the other, parents, society and etc, but I am willing to sacrifice all that to follow God’s expectations of me, so the essence is in what remains (that which is the most fundamental). In that sense Fi would be a kind of moral code or something similar.

Another perspective is basically “to have a soul” or a personality of some kind. Like say, I organize the concepts impersonally, but perhaps I should do it more personally. Not too much, just an Fi minimum. I think that makes sense.

Hm, okay I can see that and it makes sense. I like this metaphor. Maybe you haven’t thought about it particularly deeply, or maybe it’s not important, but what would you say would be the sea (dominant function?) and land (id?)? And the stars, for navigation come to mind too. Tertiary?

Yeah that makes sense, except, we are describing psyche, which is a way of objectifying it. That depersonalizes it (sanitizes it) and it’s not much different from looking at yourself in a mirror. “That’s me” you point at something outside of you. That’s me. (Me is an objective pronoun). If Fi represents the soul, then all this psyche appellation is a Ti ingression into Fi soul dynamics. It inherently depersonalizes anyone who gets caught up in it (and caught up in doing it).

I think Fi and Ni are more personal (more subjective) and Si and Ti are the opposite. This squares with how Blake has described it in his articles, too. The “Fi record” is sensorial. Really, there is no difference between feeling and sensation, just like there is no difference between thinking and feeling. The only one among them that really seems to stand out is intuition. That is, abstraction (and the traversal of abstractions). I’d even risk making a statement like: “sensing, feeling and thinking are consciousness functions, while intuition is a sentience function, and sentience is ‘above’ consciousness”

But I digress. Maybe approaching things too impersonally is the Te id ? I’m not sure.

It comes as intuition, expresses itself as thought, is organized by feeling and encoded as sensation. It doesn’t begin as sensation, as would be in the case of introjecting and metabolizing experience with others. The vector origin you describe is precisely opposite of what I had described in the context of writing “introverted relationship data”.

Basic Input Output System, on the motherboard of a computer. It takes an input, performs an operation and emits an output. As basic as can be. This is also the basic meaning of the word “function” (input->process->output)

I see that, though that ‘gaining perspective and checking accuracy’ is a function I would assign to the superego. However, if personalizing the superego and orienting towards social expectations (even if perhaps this is only how some MB temperaments experience the superego) then I can see that the neutral function can be given some QC duty. Like proofreading my writing, or at least editing it to remove typos. Tedious and uninteresting, but it is relevant because it improves the presentation and diminishes friction.

For a Demon Se I would call it a Wolf. (Sun ENTP)
For Demon Si I would call it History. (Moon INFJ)

I’m sure there’s a way to integrate it, but there’s no way it can be a priority over the other 5 functions. I don’t see how it can be important to focus upon those functions until my development gets to the point where I know what to do about all that inferiority, demons, hells, and etc.

I call it the inferior and hell functions based on how it is described here. In my own mind I have always called the 4th function the Aspirational. (But I hadn’t learned of the remaining other 4 until discovering Stellar Maze). I’d probably always choose a positive and happy outcome for every type expression and every cognitive function arrangement composing the personality type. But the world is not like that. So these kind of cheesy happy formulations that I wish were true are unrealistic.

In any case, the best thing I can think to do with this information, based on how it is taught here in Stellar Maze (mainly sourcing from Blake’s articles and to a lesser extent, the comments, then the forum posts and also the speculations within them, and of least priority but highest interest, my own musings [formulating explanations {because doing so usually maximizes learning integration}]).

  • Main type (ENTP)
  • Unleashing the hidden strength auxiliary (Ti)
  • Improving awareness of the id and its foibles (Te)
  • Attaining to superego minimums (Fi)
  • Enjoying lighter doses of tertiary temptation (Fe)
  • Developing the ego, increasing in lucidity, understanding, and sentient (Fe) conscious (Ti) awareness (Ne) as an emergent universal existence that is: Am. (That is to say, Being.)

I’m tired too. I think many people who come to Stellar Maze are probably very exhausted on a long-winded self-initiated path of self-development. I will leave the purification of hell and exorcism of demons to the professionals.

I believe that is the right thing to do.

I don’t want to tell a story. I don’t want to write about the sequence of events in my life that brought me to this moment. What a drag.

Careering. In a nutshell. Motivated by money since I was kid. Long ago rejected writing or music making as financially unviable. In college, kept switching majors. Electrical engineering to chemical engineering to materials science, to cognitive science and that’s why I took the personality typology test in the first place. Confining myself to a predetermined path with each step laid out in sequence. Learning how to add my 2 + 2s and cheese an essay before I can do anything real, or interesting, or fun. Why is poor people college such shit.

Ti Aux probably career choice, best option. Something something Fe For Fun. Something to do with organizing things into categories. Sounds fun.

Designing Ontologies for software companies. Put my languaging skills to use. Appellating abstract concepts? check. Learning something new? Eh. Making money? Hell yes. Let’s do it.

I reduced my morning pages parameters to one page and whenever I think it will help. That Fe is a temptation and that Te minimum is not the accent I’m looking for. Maybe INFJ moon will howl. I will listen up. Anyhoooooo

That NeFe temptation is to design an Ontology for Ontology. Appellating existence. Dayyyyym sun. But seriously, I did do try that. I even started putting together a Conlang for it, with sound tables and everything. Trying to hack those glitches in the reality code.

But why?

To solve everybody’s problems.

But instead, I will solve my own problems. I think a lot of people like having problems. I shouldn’t take that away from them by doing my helping actions in their direction.

Well now, hey now, I wonder if I can improve my Ti Aux mastery enough to explain to a team of coders how to make a software. I honestly doubt I will ever cut it as a coder. I might cut it as an explainer, or like a codifier or something. Eh, physics is all appellating existence / ontology of ontology anyway.

Ontology of being -> psychology
Ontology of existence -> physics

And it doesn’t mean they can’t both be objective and subjective it just doesn’t matter until it does. But I think, the physics matters more.

Matter matters means matter emerges and we go from 0 to 1. The distance is infinite, the timing is relative, burritos for breakfast and a new pair of shoes.

God blessit, Blake how are you so smart man. Just how. And, by what logic or improbability have you already thought through and delivered exactly the perspective I was looking for?

Physics and Psychology

The Ontology of Ontology
Existence and Being

Look, the ontology is already emerging and it wasn’t a conscious intention, I was just thinking.

I can add another set.
Consciousness and Sentience.

And there’s a spectrum. Multiple spectrums. Maybe I will call it Spectral Ontology.

Oh wait this might actually be a NiTi loop from the INFJ moon. Ne maybe goes meta, but the INFJ moon NiTi temptation dynamics makes the meta go meta go meta go meta go meta go meta go meta go meta.

And of course, all this is meta in relation to that dynamic. And of course, so is the preceding sentence and this one as well.

Also, the primary function of the natural father or supervisor of any type is what I call the superego function. It is well-known that the superego has a patriarchal character to it.
-Blake

Though I fudged it with the Rising type I so called it with the id/superego inter-type relationship! Fuck yes, more brownie points for me!

And it looks real good for a system if different players derive the same models, same types and same relational dynamics independently. Woohoo for science! LOL. I guess it’s time for me to go look at socionics.