That's So Metal


#1

@Blake

Maynard James Keenan is an INTJ. Agree or disagree:

Also it’s quite hilarious how Tool’s oeuvre is the perfect manifestation of the INTJ type, monochromatic rainbow and all.


#2

Steven Wilson is an INTP. Agree or disagree:


#3

Mikael Åkerfeldt is an INFJ. Agree or disagree:


#4

Guthrie Govan is an ISTP. Agree or disagree:


#5

Serj Tankian is an INFJ (and fucking hilarious). Agree or disagree:


#6

Disagree. And he is the only one of the people you listed that I’ve heard of. But, in Maynard James Keenan’s case, I’ve not only heard of him, I was pretty much obsessed with him (and Tool in general) about 20 years ago. And I actually thought a lot about what his type was because he was baffling to me.

He was actually one of the people that was instructive to me in figuring out what an enneatype 8 ENFJ looks and sounds like.

So, in brief, no on the INTJ for him, however…[quote=“Kevin.K, post:1, topic:185”]
Also it’s quite hilarious how Tool’s oeuvre is the perfect manifestation of the INTJ type, monochromatic rainbow and all.
[/quote]

…I consider the band’s guitarist, Adam Jones, an INTJ type. And he is responsible for much of the band’s sound, which does have this monotonous (in a good way) quality. Also, Adam Jones is the primary architect of the band’s videos. I think he is the primary architect of the band.

Maynard has described himself (somewhere in some video) as being a reactive artist. Like, he doesn’t create so much as he listens to what someone else has created (like Adam Jones) and he kind of vibes off and reacts to that. And in my opinion, he is really really good at this. Maynard immerses in and loses himself in his performances. And it is very, very emotional. So, no on the INTJ on that account alone. Definitely a guy that has very strong feeling. What I think you’re seeing is this kind of badass and hard quality that he has. And also pretty thoughtful and introspective etc. ENFJs project the Ni-Se axis.

However, I was confused for a time because I thought he could be an ISxP type because he actually looks a lot like a couple of ISTPs that I know. But, that didn’t make any sense to me because there is no way an ISTP can have the kind of facility that Maynard has with feeling in his performances.

Also, I felt a pretty different impression of Maynard when he was singing and performing versus when he was speaking in an interview.

His speaking voice is often kind of pinched and nasal. But, his singing voice is…just fucking incredible. So emotional and nuanced, being able to go from the most beautiful soft voice to one of the most captivating screams I’ve ever heard in a rock front man. Fucking mesmerizing. So, this guy has great emotional control of his voice and he can hit all the right spots at the right times in some perfect form of hypnosis and catharsis.

Only an ENFJ can do that. That emotional range and dynamism of expression. It’s an Fe thing. And it’s an Fe thing in the background rather than to the forefront.

I don’t know if you have noticed but a lot of times when Maynard sings live he is in the shadows and he is not to the front of the stage. It’s like his Fe is back there. And my impression of Maynard is that he is in this kind of liquid recessed medium when he is singing quietly and then it reaches this climax (and coming to the fore) in this singularity of presence and violence. That’d be the Ni-Se axis. That’s where’s he’s coming to a head in his performance.

So, yeah. The others I don’t have time to get to right now. Maybe later.


Wiki: Typings By Blake
#7

First of all, fuck yes! Tool is the fucking best. Ænima is a great album. Twenty years ago corresponds to the release of Ænima, but Lateralus and 10,000 Days are top notch, too. I hope you’ve checked them out if you haven’t already.

Okay, so we can agree that Adam Jones, Tool’s sound, aesthetic, lyrics, and videos are INTJ. Good.

I will consider your ENFJ model and neither accept nor reject it, merely consider it. The same reason why I am considering my INTJ model and neither accepting it nor rejecting it, but merely considering it.

Having considered the former, we can agree on the Ni-Se axis. Good.

Can we agree that Maynard has stronger Ni than Se? If so, then both models are still in the running.

It’s very interesting how I perceive versus how you perceive. What I can see immediately in Maynard is Se, and weak Se. It’s the way he moves on stage. You can tell he’s enamored by Se, and yet can’t fully embody it. The movements end up looking sort of awkward and, frankly, cringey, where he does those downward lunges. But cringe is an Se concept and not an Si one, so not sure how much that descriptor will help. But yeah, I originally arrived at my INTJ model based off what I perceived as inferior Se, and my assumption that he was the main driver of the band’s sound/lyrics.

I neither accept nor deny the INTJ or ENFJ models, merely simultaneously consider them.

It is extremely interesting how I would have ruled out ISxP from the get-go based on the fact that I think Maynard’s Se is too weak to be dominant or auxiliary. I’ve noticed a pattern where you type based on the feeling function, in contrast to how I type based on the sensing function. So, where you try to pinpoint 1) what type of feeling function said person has and 2) in what qualitative form, I do the same with the sensing function. The type of sensing function (as in, Se or Si) is immediately apparent to me, and usually the qualitative form (as in, dominant or auxiliary, etc.) is as well, although to a lesser degree of confidence and immediacy. I’ve noticed that this is rarely utilized by you. This isn’t something that I’m disputing; rather, it’s fascinating. I’m enamored by the other form of thought which manifests as dominant perception followed by Ti. It’s refreshing and definitely something I can learn from.

Yes, I completely agree with every subjective judgement (emotional or otherwise) you’ve made regarding Maynard’s voice. So, we can agree on the perception of his voice.

This is where I have to disagree. I do not believe that the control of one’s voice is necessarily correlated with one’s feeling function. Sure, there can be a correlation, but it is not necessarily a 1:1 correlation.

Take, for example, Chris Cornell. I believe that Cornell’s voice has many of the qualities that Maynard’s has. Cornell’s singing can range from the very soft to the most aggressive screams. But, I do not think that Cornell is an ENFJ. However, for the very same reasons, you might think that Cornell is an ENFJ. So we might not disagree on our perception, but we disagree on our subsequent judgement.

I also have to disagree with your typing of Axl Rose as an ENFJ. I can tell you arrived at this typing from the presence of Se + his voice. However, I think he comes off as too dull to be an ENFJ, and he lacks Fe in interviews. And I don’t believe that ENFJs can turn off their dominant function like that.

Here is another point of contention for Axl Rose: I see stronger Se than Ni. It’s not something that can be discursively reasoned with. It’s just seen. But, I’m not sure what can be accomplished at the level of rational discussion if a certain quality is not present at the level of perception in the first place.

So yeah, Axl Rose’s Ni is too weak to be auxiliary.

I’ve noticed the same typing-via-voice method employed with your typing of Bjork. While I do not necessarily disagree with your typing or contend that this method is inaccurate, I do have to point out that, to me, voice is secondary to cognitive functions, whereas I’ve noticed in your methodology, cognitive functions are secondary to voice when said voice has that certain set of qualities that garners an ENFJ typing from you. I don’t think it is necessarily wrong to consider an artist’s voice when determining their type. However, I think in some paradoxical cases, this methodology might lead one astray or potentially cloud one’s judgment of the perception of the voice. Agree or disagree?


#8

Yep, what he said


#9

@xijack

Dude I fucking love Tool memes

What other kind of metal are you into?


#10

@Blake When you have the time, I’d like to know whether you agree with Steven WIlson’s typing

This is what Kevin shared:


#11

I don’t agree with it in the least. Well, that’s not true. I agree with it in the least. If we are saying INTJ is the least of INTP. Or is it the other way around?

At any rate, I think he is an INTj, and a very quintessential one at that.

INTPs aren’t anywhere near as cutting, incisive, and decisive as this guy is.

He knows his mind well, knows what he thinks and puts it out there briefly, cleanly, and without a lot of emotion or mincing of words.

Te aux. in effect, yo!


#12

@Blake
Yea, I thought he could be either INTJ… or a very British INFJ, haha. People always type him as INTP though, I think the stereotype is prog.rock-ish = INTP.

Of course I am basing it additionally on the nature of his music, (I know only some), it all seems darkly Fi. How do you really differentiate between Fi-id or Fi-tertiary, seeing as there is something “infantile” about both? Especially in the realm of artistic expression.
But Wilson is also into music production and has said he likes it (though in practice he only seems to produce his own music)- since that seems something INTJs are often into, maybe he is INTJ.

The mixed signals made me wonder if he was a Scorpio…and he is.
In general, I feel a Scorpio INFJ would be less obviously “Fe”, would that be true?
or offer a higher emotional depth to INTJ? Not sure about this.


#13

The id is infantile because developmentally speaking, it’s an infant. The tertiary only appears “infantile” if it is reached for too soon or if it is overdone for it’s scheduled allotment. Actually, I wouldn’t even say the tertiary is infantile, I’d say it’s more enthusiastic and overzealous (in overreaching form, not normal form). The tertiary can be annoying to others because of this eagerness to overindulge and constant attention seeking and validation of it from others.

However, there is a more normative form of the tertiary and so this doesn’t apply to the tertiary as a whole. On the whole, if the tertiary is balanced, it is quite sophisticated and elegant and not at all infantile or regressive. I think the reason it might look infantile is if it is preempted or overdone.

The id is truly infantile in nature. However, that doesn’t mean that any given person will express it that way. It can be brought under control and channeled. But, in and of itself, the id is dangerous much in the same way that an uncontrolled infant is.

Like, this dude (Steven Wilson), I don’t feel any strong Fi id, in any form, controlled or not. And I do feel a strong Ti base for him, which, yes, would suggest INTJ or INTP. It’s hard to explain these things in words. Ti id has a certain instinctive unbiased and removed quality, quite antithetical to an Fi id, which is biased and intensely involved.

INTJs do have Fi tertiary, which means they do express a bias and strong conviction, but it manifests more mentally. They can be quite mentally cutting and eviscerating. But, still there is an instinctive remove such that INTJs don’t give the sense of being bound up personally and at a deep level with those Fi valuations.

Pictorially, an INTJ is like a cat emotionally (Ti id) who may sneer and hiss and all that but then goes back to it’s cool and detached observer state.

An INFJ is like a Scorpion emotionally (Fi id). A Scorpion will sting itself to death if need be. It’s intense. Bound up. Passionate. Involved, whether it wants to be or not. But, on the other hand, scorpions are tough desert dwellers who can go for long periods without water and all that.

So, picture a person that thinks like a Scorpion and feels like a cat. That’s INTJ.

An INFJ, by turns, thinks like a cat but feels like a Scorpion (poisonous, for one thing).

Dunno if that helps, but at any rate, Steven Wilson feels like a cat (which is to say he’s not deeply affected by anything really), but is, let us say, mentally passionate. INTJ.

INTP is a whole other ball of wax. In any event, INTP comes across softer than either INTJ or INFJ, more phlegmatic. [quote=“Spice, post:12, topic:185”]
In general, I feel a Scorpio INFJ would be less obviously “Fe”, would that be true?
[/quote]

Yes, most likely. It would emphasize the INFJs Fi id such that they would come across as less expressive and more deep, intense, and mute. That sort of thing. [quote=“Spice, post:12, topic:185”]
or offer a higher emotional depth to INTJ?
[/quote]

Yep, Scorpio is the deepest of all the signs. So, whatever temperament it occurs in it will tend to make that temperament deeper.

If Scorpio occurs in an INFJ temperament, that is pretty much as “deep” as you can get.

That’s heavy.

INTJs are renowned for being deep too, but, it is less emotionally and more mentally.

But, whatever, INFJ and INTJ are both deep. They are both Particular Melancholic temperaments, which means Saturn-ruled, and this too has something to do with their depth.

INTJs stay dry though (if they can and mostly). Ti id. Cat. But, nonetheless, an INTJ can be a very profound distant observer of human nature.

INFJs find out about human nature by close interpersonal and intense involvement with one other person. They tend to start out this way. And no matter how much they may wish to lose this sense of intense involvement so as to later appear like detached cat-like observers, the vestiges of this Fi-id are ineradicable if one knows where to look.

It is clear to me, Steven Wilson has NONE of that, but, I wouldn’t know how to easily explain why. I just don’t feel that at all. But, I wasn’t close to considering him an INFJ either. So, to me, he is not a borderline case. He comes off as very INTJ.

Anyway, bye metal head.


#14

I like this image!

When I said I considered INFJ, it was more due to the content of his works that I am familiar with (his later solo works), and not really based on the way he speaks. But, yea, it probably is tert-Fi that I am seeing. (I don’t have much familiarity with his earlier works, but they seem more Ti-ish, hence the commonly attributed INTP I guess). Anyway, what I am saying is, I got the explanation on Steven Wilson.


#15

Cool, glad something resonated. Phew.


#16

Yes…this seems to be overlooked on a regular basis.