The emergence of types. Why 16 for MBTI? Why anything?


#1

i know it adds nothing to anything and that i’ve said it many times on here, but i think it’s plain WEIRD there are “types”. why not 40 clearly recognizable “whole types”. why this number? 16? (and yes…yadayada people are individuals but still). i know it’s not the only system. i do accept it but regularly i’m like “wait no…that’s plain weird”. if you could recognize an isolated specialized function here and there ok. but a “whole type” is crazier to see it reappear and reappear. geez what the heck. but guess it’s what specialization might do…but then again why 16 then. why is it enough:) and is each type truly needed etc. wouldn’t it be cool if we started to see a 17th type emerge. how long before we take notice. would it be 17 or 18 next? would 18 be a reaction to 17? etc. i’m sorry if this is too “out there” and “what the”. literally that’s me “thinking” LOL. guess Blake’s article on isfj makes it seem like types could be class-related among other things. but what time frame…so confusing. classes can change within a few generations. in all this time, 16 types. it’s like there is a moment where it all comes together and a type can take hold as something but what does that mean if it’s inborn. it’s as if it’s not class related either. that really makes you think it has to be happening way beyond this Earth, like in some bizarre possibilities soup higher or like strangely orthogonal to Earth. if there were going to be a new class-related or societal force too great, i wonder what the next type will be or how much morphing is next. which type will be the first to go. a type could disappear? and also… the types are distributed…also kind of strange. i wonder if i would recognize an infp raised in other countries. if i ran into an infp in Turkey and they seemed more or less like me, it would be just too mind boggling. i almost hope i can barely recognize an infp living in Turkey or it’s just too much to contemplate. but yeah maybe if they can speak English they wouldn’t seem all that different. so infps springing up all over the place as an inborn thing. what causes that. the distribution aspect makes the whole response to societal force thing so confusing…ah brain implode, ()but i guess if there are only 16 types for a very long time and lots of mixing. really makes me want to think of it as just cognition that for some reason is inborn according to a pattern no one has cracked.


how to detect INXJ
#2

yeah i wonder this too

like why color codes only have 4 colors? (red, blue, yellow, white) and why those colors?
why does enneagram only have 9 types? but if you add tri-types, there are 27. (9x3)
but if you rearrange those tritypes, 243 types.

MBTI has 16 types. but certain site adds turbulence/assertiveness and it becomes 32.

socionics have more, they add a function to each type like “ESTP-Ti” or "ESTP-Se"
but some goes further and create more ‘types’.

humans are just very complex. and everybody is trying to figure themselves out “why am i different?”

there are even bloodtypes, which is popular in eastern Asia,
A, B, O, AB blood types. there are tons of articles over there.
and it goes further by adding A-, A+, O+, O-, and so on.

astrology, 12, but if you add cusps, 24.

why does pyramid have 4 triangles? and not three?

numbers can mean something and nothing at the same time


#3

once Jews were slaves to Egyptians. now they rule the world.


#4

Yeah kind of like that isfp vagina guy. He seems fairly different from some isfps I know, no isfp I know is that good of a laugher and looks so open-faced but I only know two with good frequency. So yeah. Lots further one can say beyond 16…guess it just starts to get more confusing when you keep going like that. Yeah maybe it’s not so much 16 as 16 “really recognizable ones” and then lots of refinements and variety beyond. But how far back have the 16 types been very recognizable. I’d love to know. Was there a time when it was just 4 really recognizable types with variety? What was the first STANDOUT type? Etc. Was the first standout type the second type or the first type? I don’t even know what these questions are asking. Like enfj? What would be the earliest functionality historically of enfj? When would the first point have been that someone would “recognize” the enfj type. Without calling it that. Just look at enfj and say “I know this type” of person. How far back? Is it impossible for the answer to be has always been? Like what do we know?


#5

hahahah Omg Erika’s trend continues

same. I still am not sure if he’s isfp.
I listen to bits of his podcast and still not sure

male and female ♂ ♀

yeah I thought about this too.
but I also theorized that the first people had better brains and functionality than us. far more advanced.
so like EISNTFPJ type probably


#6

kind of like the specialization/pruning process then…
guess I find the wide distribution of types puzzling…the skipping blood-relations-wise
i think it’s the distribution aspect that i’m now obsessing about… yeehaw. so much Ne-spew to figure out WHAT is tickling my somewhere in the back of the brain.


#7

like this may seem too biblical but if people back in the days were living 850+ years old. I am guessing they had special genetics too.

like there are so many ‘types’ of dogs. so many.
but I wouldn’t be surprised if one type of dog with crazy genetic created bunch of offspring that all look so different from each other.


#8

my dog, she had 8 puppies one time
few golden, few white, and few black.

and they all each had different texture of furs too.

so i can easily believe people back in the day were able to do so.

if we are actually descendents of food survivors. aka Noah and his family. I wouldn’t be surprised if Noah had three very distinctively looking children. and so on


#9

so like the same way mutations appear?
i get confused why you see all 16 types everywhere lol.<—well that’s made up i don’t know if it’s a fact
physical characteristics are still somewhat geographical.
asian eyes are geographical/genetic. body type yes ?and/or? no.
i wish there were lots of stats that you can rely on, but the types might not even exist!
this stuff is so weird.
are we born IENSTF and prune from the getgo and thereby go towards a type due to some restrictions on pruning or are we born one type and prune according to that type…all those questions are nuts to think about.
guess what i wonder is can really all the resemblance from one enfj to another just be broken down into the functions and some pruning process? or are the similarities too rich and something else is going on for the type to appear here and there and be recognizable and why would it appear whole like that in multiple places.


#10

it does and it doesn’t.

I’m actually not sure about this.
I’m leaning towards being born with a type.
and your brain is pre-wired to respond to certain situations that defines you better as you grow old. But I’m not quite sure.
because I haven’t really developed my Ti until I graduated from high school. and I don’t even remember using Ti so much to a degree. I was dancing most of the time. so what did I even look like before that?

also I felt like I could relate to everyone around me if I tried hard enough. before knowing about typology.

types exist and doesn’t exist.


#11

maybe it’s like newborn is looking for stuff to latch ONTO?? those things are the most primordial things…ghosts of psychological soup gook. and some really incomprehensible complexes are activated… ah the night of confusion is tonight.

and yeah i have thought about how strange when the auxiliary emerges…and yet you were still you before…<----this is why I like the id concept. id would kind of explain how you were you before the auxiliary because auxiliary releases the id or could be motivated by id, some kind of connection

hmmm genetics. would be interesting if id is what’s genetic (the night of the grand bs) and the rest is initiated by this id seeking these ghosts in the realm of psychological soup…making a kind of match… and then voila…activation…lol. or the newborn just has these ghosts of the id…just there. and somehow is programmed to just kind of note them. and the noting is what wires the brain. lol! confusing. but that kind of early “apprehension” oh my god so fascinating and ghostly…

dynamic evolution of type throughout lifetime also very weird to me…oh no. a new weird thing. why do we incorporate the weaker functions over time? if individuation served a purpose of specialization…what’s with the then balancing out…why a lifespan arc for a type within one lifetime…


#12

thanks for the back and forth @supernokturnal:)

gn!


#13

As usual, @lunar, you have penetrated right to the heart of the mystery of psychological types. I honestly don’t know how you manage to do this time and time again!

Ever since I wrote that comment about diversification into types, my mind has also been wondering how and why this may have happened. If we assume for now that the model of 16 MBTI types does indeed describe a genuine psychological diversity in humans, then there must have been some kind of evolutionary process driving it. In other words, there has been an evolution of the psyche running in parallel with the genetic evolution of the species. Now, I know I’m far from being the first person to think of this (I googled it once I had the idea, in case you’re wondering!), but so far I haven’t found any musings on how this could have led to the Jungian types as we know them. However, I do have some intuitions formulating around the origins of the other two Freudian complexes; the Superego and the Ego, which I suspect are much, much younger than the Id, and were originally part of it.

My own Ego likes to think that I’m pretty good at this Ni shit, but my insight is nothing compared to yours. I think I’m finally starting to grasp what @Blake has been saying all along about the immense power of the Id function; and in your case this means Ni in its purest form of expression.

My own Ni has just indicated that I should follow this for a while to see where it leads. It’s got to have something to do with the unconscious, unchanging nature of the Id itself. If the Id function in an individual or a collective is both inherited and unchanging (at least on the timescale of a human lifespan), then it must be locked in a pristine and fixed state within the unconscious mind. In other words it is impervious to being moulded, influenced, contaminated or corrupted by any other psychic function, including the ego and superego. The latter two functions have evolved an array of tricks and deceptions to get around this problem, trying to “feed” and soothe the primitive instinctual needs of the Id in a more socially acceptable fashion than killing or fucking.

But when the going gets tough and our very survival is threatened, we should be very grateful indeed for the primal powers of the Id! And perhaps the essentially pure and unpolluted nature of our psychic Id instincts occasionally break through our “civilised” defense mechanisms, with a blast of insight or profound wisdom from the type function it inhabits.

A very long-winded way of saying that when you get one of your Id-powered intuitions, Lunar, we should all listen very carefully to what you have to say! :open_mouth:


#14

seriously!
i wish Lunar never deletes her posts.

absolutely.

oh, and i forgot to mention, since i wasn’t subscribed at that time,

ur breakdown on how Blake can possibly be ENFP was acutally awesome.

just like Erika said,

like this resonates with me, with my own experience,
people never guess ESTP for my type, even Blake the master typist himself couldn’t.

i’ve even tried giving clues to people and still doesn’t really work.

i have to be so stereotypical to convince someone that i’m an ESTP when they originally thought i was something else.

i have love/hate relationship with mbti. and it’s still fun.

but from your words it reminds me that this is not the universal truth.

i mean, even cultures for example, there used to be a trend on YouTube where people uploaded funny videos titled
"shit that xxxxx says"
like shit that black people say, shit that white people say, shit that asian people say, shit that mexicans say, and it went as far as shit that xxxx mothers say, and so on.

and it was trending because people were able to agree upon and see the significant similarities.

but like i’ve mentioned before, there’s a huge flaw in doing this. categorizing people.
it can be laughable and taken lightheartedly, but it can also divide people and start clans like KKK and such.

like there’s color red and blue. initial recognition, differentiation.
and then people say red means evil, blue means good. interpretation, definition.
then people take sides, i’m on a blue team! i’m on a red team! partiality, favoritism.
then they go against each other. conflict, dissension.
and then, diversion.

repeat.


#15

oh my goodness. what did i write last night so late:) i’m scared when i Ne like that there is very little filter and just no control. just madness:) thank you for your encouragement. you’re so kind. the evolution of the psyche is something i wish it were easier to understand:) i feel greedy. i WANT the answer. so much that is way beyond us. what are we:) incomprehensible? geesh. life is short and no answers:)


#16

thank you. sweet of you.


#17

There are actually quite a few clues hinting that the origin of the types was a very long time ago, if you know where to look. To do this you have to let go of our modern scientific mindset and try to see things as the ancients did, when all they had to investigate the nature of reality were their own limited perceptive and reasoning faculties, supported by a few basic tools and their own imaginations.

A few advanced ancient societies, such as the Greeks, Chinese and Arabs, had managed to identify and codify some fundamental principles of physics and chemistry, but this was rare and isolated. And intermingled with the genuine scientific principles they unearthed were a greater number of incorrect beliefs, superstitions and part-truths.

And in the absence of modern scientific notation and formulae, the thinkers and philosophers of the pre-scientific era used the language of myth and magic to describe and record their ideas. And that is what modern-day scholars must also learn how to read and translate in order to see things as they did.

This is what Carl Jung did, with all the single-minded thoroughness and focussed determination that only an introverted intuitive type can bring to an investigation of this nature. And because of a synchronistic alignment of his typological strengths, his professional skills as a psychologist and his life-long awareness of his deep spiritual mission, he succeeded in cracking the coded language of the ancients like no other scholar has done before or since! This is where he found the answers he was looking for, and he spent much of the second half of his life sharing his discoveries with the world so we all might better understand our own psyches.


#18

it kind of makes sense in a way due to how the types are so widely distributed although no idea if that is even how it would work
sometimes i try to image all 16 types in a small clan of cave people just for the fun of it


#19

i think freaking out about reappearance of type got triggered by seeing the enfj that RumDawg posted walking in a graveyard. couldn’t believe yet another enfj just going for a graveyard in that particular way of doing it (luscioussness red lips (and she works her tease “you can’t criticize me I’m 15 oolaalaa” ) cast right next to symbols of death and the past)…a visual like that can’t be spelled by just Ne id+Fe+Ni+Se+Ti. what’s going on? why such a repetitive “fully formed” theme…
and of course many of us are attracted to graveyards or enjoy walking along the grasses and streaming through and contemplating, but for an enfj to make a video of it like that and just the style of it, it just seems like a reappearance of something way beyond that enfj that you see in many other enfjs…they just seem to embody that through no choice of their own. to be “yourself,” sometimes, is to be this “other” thing that is coming through you for who knows what reason.

just mysterious


#20

Do not freak out that you “got your own thread” Lunar, hahaha!

Anyway, I think the 16 types is very much related to the western understandings of the hermetic elements, that is, Fire Air Earth Water combinations. Blake himself uses the four humors to also describe MBTI in a 4x4 matrix (especially obvious if you look at my chart–that I need to update at some point lol). And it’s those combinations of humors/elements that probably made up the basis of understanding of the 4 cognitive categories and their 2 directions each. 4 x 4 is also 16. It’s all related. Which is also why it’s very astrologically-related. I thought it was pretty clever Blake decided ot solve the problem of 12 signs vs 16 MBTI categorizations by splitting the mutable signs.

Yeah, so I think if you understand that much of western civilization and gnosticism is based on a 4-element understanding, it might be easy to see why this emergence happens repeatedly and almost eerily predictably. But far Eastern philosophies often use a 5 + 1 kind of system (Fire Air Water Metal Wood + Earth/spirit)? So I wonder how maybe MBTI does or doesn’t apply as neatly in to those societies. I think you could make the argument that Metal and Wood is just further sensitivity to Earth or Water subtlies, but who knows. I would have to read into that more.