The story of my involvement in politics & thoughts on the US election


#1

I wanted to share my story of being involved in progressive politics, my subsequent disillusionment, & how it ties in with the elections. I’ve been very depressed and frustrated since November, and want to be able to vent honestly, which I don’t feel like I can do with the people in my circles.

I’m also interested to hear if anyone on here has a similar story, and also what your personal reactions to the election were. If you are in the US, does this affect your/your family’s long term plans? Has your views on humanity changed at all? There’s been a lot of discussion about what the election represents about America’s collective conscious, and about Trump’s type, but I’m hoping to delve into the more personal aspect.

My Story:

I grew up in a very liberal metropolitan area in the US. I’ve always considered this a fortunate thing. As an immigrant, I was (and still am) grateful for amazing embrace of diversity & how the local city/county/state government seriously bends over backwards to accommodate & serve newcomers.

During college, I felt that I had found my calling in progressive politics. I think Blake has more or less alluded to this in various articles, but Progressivism/Liberalism (not in the classical sense) is a pretty natural “home” for Fi. I worked in journalism, for various politicians/political lobbying offices, and was active in numerous community organizations related to immigrant advocacy, women’s rights, filmmaking & more. I probably had 8-9 jobs and internships total. College was the happiest & most fulfilled time of my life. In hindsight, knowing what I know now, it’s probably because there was a lot of Fi+Ne blooming at play.

However, the seeds of my disillusionment were sown early. It began when working for a particular figure who has workers’ rights as part of their platform, and yet treated a staffer that I was close to very atrociously (for sake of privacy, I cannot go into the details. You’ll have to take my word for it). In fact they had a reputation for treating their subordinates like trash. I learned that they were not the only ones in local progressive circles like that. This huge gap between the public persona and private shittiness really made my blood boil. Worse of all was this sense that we had to more or less look the other way because as one of the few minority/person of color figureheads, we “needed” this person and because they were one of our own.

Now, I realize such a phenomenon is not unique to liberals as a group. In some ways, it’s just politics as usual. But it plays into a larger grievance I have towards progressivism: the tendency to place ideology above reality. I feel strongly this is a big reason the Dems lost. And I swear, every left-wing movement that springs up on God’s green earth ends up devouring itself in this way.

After college, I transitioned out of politics and into a corporate setting. The reasons for it are irrelevant to this discussion, so let’s just pin it on immigrant parent pressure. Fast forward to this election.

Like most millennials out there, I was a Hillary voter. I was shocked when Trump won, but with a couple years of distance away from the political arena I was not as invested in the elections, so I didn’t sob into my pillows for a week the way some of my friends did. (Perhaps for good reason.)

Since the elections, I’ve tried to educate myself more about the “other side”. I’m happy to see that there’s been at least a smidgeon of soul-searching among liberals (there’s a great article in Vox written back in April: “The smug style in American liberalism”). There’s a surprising amount that I can identify with in Trump voters & conservatives. I’ve come to the understanding that the election is in part a backlash against PC culture. And the realization that the exact way the left sees the right is the way that the right sees the left. Including all those damn witty memes on social media - they have their own about us!

At the point in time, I’m in despair about the state of Liberal America. I do not feel like it’s learned its lesson. Just look at the divisions in the Womens’ March as an example - the constant policing of peoples’ words and expressions to ensure that it perfectly aligns with a perfect standard of behavior that’s devoid of all known human prejudices. A nice vision. Just like communism. (To clarify, I’m not calling liberals communists, but calling to attention parallels that I find increasingly alarming.) In the end, I can’t help but feel that this type of policing doesn’t actually result in the promised utopia, it only gets used as political tool of manipulation by those who are cunning & not at all invested in ideals.

Unfortunately, Trump is the ultimate reactionary, so suggesting that the left extends any sort of olive branch is out of question. They’re all preparing for the Revolution Come. IMO Trump has brought this upon himself, the same way the left has brought this outcome on themselves. How can I, or anyone even hold up a mirror to both sides?

Sorry for the not-so-uplifting post. I hope I have not offended anyone, I have no knowledge of what any of your political views are, and I’m definitely not trying to start a political debate. Just wanted to unload, & also curious how MBTI may or may not factor into your reactions to the election. Dashes off to the Joy Zone

TL;DR: Was a bleeding heart. College experiences & recent elections injected the necessary doses of reality. Feeling frustrated with and suspicious of liberal culture of PC-ness and word/thought policing. Depressed that both sides are engaged in a death match of demagoguery. How do we fix America?


#2

That’s a good intro post!
I may write a longer post, but for now I will make a sort of glib comment:
I believed in the general stats that Hillary & co probably believed in and didn’t take into account the strong and stubborn impact of human emotions and thus was surprised by the result! Typical naive Ti-id wormhole? Perhaps!

I think as a Canadian, I also do not have a pulse on the full extent of America’s unease, and the recent Trudeau (Liberal) sweep had me optimistic for a similar outcome down south. Hopefully our own Trump wannabes don’t rise too far (Leitch and O’Leary), but who knows what 3 years will bring.

I mayself am a pretty practical and milquetoast person politics-wise, but the world today is very noisy and somewhat demands very loud, very visible “leaders”, and being extreme on one end or the other makes you very visible, and can be mistaken for something of idealogical purity, which is further mistaken as moral impugnity. And anyone can make this kind of mistake out of hope or desperation for a change in circumstance (I think that some people are also just so bored with their situation that any change is taken as good, even if it’s catastrophic).

That’s human nature and human history for you. All most of us can hope for is to not be crushed by the pendulum swings of history and social movements. Maybe INFJs are born from the aftermath of these impacts as unwitting receptacles for humanity’s emotional history! lol

I wrote and rambled a lot more than I thought I would–on the bus no less!


#4

a) Facebook is evil
b) Lately it has pretty quickly become a significant risk to see more than one side of anything
c) This election was an initiation for lots of people and many are poorly equipped to deal
d) There is a lot of tension between b and c for someone who sees what’s going on and wants to help the people in their lives who don’t
e) Facebook is evil.


#5

The left does tend to eat itself because they have a lot of fronts to fight on and it’s hard for the human mind to comphrehend the totality of it and what would be best to prioritize.

Like why care about “jobs” if your very life is at risk of being snuffed out/imprisoned? Why care about “gender” if you can’t even feed family? There’s a lot of things to think about at once.

“Class” is also an identity though so… don’t think it’s seperate from the very idea of “identity politics”. We just tend to think the material of money is more salient or concrete than abstract concepts of gender/sexuality/race/religion/etc. The minority working class has been stepped on for a long while without as much social movement/uprising, so there is an expected bitterness involved when it appears like “suddenly” class seems important and needs to take priority.

I think it’s a very bitter pill to swallow that human rights have to do a song and dance and pin hopes on the majority to be supportive. I am not surprised a lot of people quit that noise and decide they don’t want to play nice anymore, but it does lead to major backlash in all kinds of ways.

I also think racism plays such a major part of America’s soul and cognitive dissonance though that you can’t ever extricate it from politics much as America wants to move past it.


#6

Lml519,
It has looked like Facebook friends, media (when they hold interviews) have needed something to fume about. That is how it looks to me when they start attacking people just for being of a different opinion on one item. Makes them poorer listeners etc. They have a need to be fanning a flame and at the first opportunity do so. Boredom?
Also lately when trying to find out what is going on you really have to hop all over the place because news channels are largely just presenting opinion. I don’t do it…so end up not knowing what is going on…


#7

Thank you, Prax! ^^ Definitely share more of your thoughts. I always enjoy reading your refreshing insights. That’s awesome you are a Canuck. Did you hear about the Canadian immigration site crash on Election night?

This election season, the spectacular failure of American liberals definitely had something to do with being out of touch with everyday economic realities of a struggling class. I even think that those pendulum swings across the political spectrum, are at one level swings between the practical needs of a populace and the spiritual ones.

However I’m not sure I agree that this is the reason the left eats itself. Not being able to fight all social/economic ills simultaneously is one thing, but how do you see that connected to the leftist tendency to self-destruct through internal purges that always occur under ideological pretenses? (A.k.a the fate of every “Communist” society - Stalinist terror, Khmer Rouge genocide, China’s Cultural Revolution. In the West, I think that self-devouring tendency is reflected in the excessive policing/call-out culture that liberals impose on FRICKEN EACH OTHER.)

I’ve been thinking lately about whether this phenomenon, and political polarity in general can be explained through Myers-Briggs. Like, it increasingly seems to me that the Left-Right dichotomy = the Fi-Te poles. Fi as the origin of the individual soul, dignity, and voice, —> the egalitarianism that drives all Leftist social & economic philosophies. Te as the instinct towards collective stability (for members of the collective) —> adherence to tried and true traditional institutions such as family, marriage, religion, law, & property rights.

Now how that connects to Lefty self-devourings…not sure I can totally put forth into words the fuzzy connections in my mind, but I feel like it has something to do with a radicalized corruption of Fi’s natural identification with the oppressed & marginalized. The victims of purges and policing are inevitably ALWAYS represented as colluding with power/ the oppressor - like in communist societies, people were targeted for being “rightists”/capitalists. And in America, I swear not a day goes by without me seeing somebody on the Internet shitting on “white allies” because their antiracist efforts actually support white supremacy.

So yeah…this is why like @SeetheElephant, I’ve become increasingly repulsed by “identity politics”, even as a nonwhite person. (I’m relieved, BTW, that there’s someone else here who can relate to what I feel regarding the progressive movement!)

Actually, learning about Myers-Briggs is one of the biggest factors in my rejection of this type of worldview & related left-wing views. This is also going to be difficult for me to explain, because it dips into the insanity of metaphysics, and I probably run the risk of sounding like some kind of loonie mystic, but I feel like your type/astrology represents your spiritual mandate in life. And that true individual empowerment, in a form that actually does justice to introverted feeling drives, comes from being free to fulfill that mandate and self-actualize, rather than reversing unequal external power structures, an exercise which categorizes people into haves/have-nots and is ultimately blind to these granular individual differences at the spiritual level. OK - I don’t think I can think any more about this, I’ll go insane!


#8

Facebook is such lightning fast conduit for groupthink (but really, isn’t what we think of as groupthink, really groupfeel?). With two exceptions, I’ve stayed out of any and all social media discussions related to Trump/the elections. It gets increasingly hard to restrain myself though. I have an inkling that in-person conversations would be more productive, though I have yet to test this.

And yeah, @lunar, the thing with the media, and what Trump did to the media - I just can’t even see the media in the same way again. How did I ever not see how not objective it is.

It also feels like Trump is intentionally continuing to bait the media/liberals, into going off the rails and abandoning all civility in order to reveal in a way that they themselves cannot deny anymore, their actual intolerance and biases. I’ve seen this unfold on some pretty heated online FB threads…


#9

About why it self defeats…maybe because Te will get an itch to stomp out Fi once Fi gets too whiny lol.
I have no idea! Like literally I have lost all context and am just picturing at this point a Te manager telling some wusses/unruliness to get with the program lol. Like literally am just seeing a cartoon by now:D


#10

Like I am resisting the urge to delete this comment because I literally have no idea what this comment is a reference to. Aaahhh.


#11

You mean the tendency to virture signal and play woke-olympics? That might be some weird Fe-Fi looping. It’s about feeling good because you look like a goodguy to others in a way. And as was noted, allows a person to vent their personal wish for bloodlust/looking superior to another person but in a supposed “good” way that some others will applaud. I am sure some salivate at being the first to really start a dogpile on an “bad” person.

Internet has made morality hipsterism/moral hypervigilance pretty bad because instead of say, a local group being involved, the whole world might pay attention. It pisses me off every time i get the feeling someone only has a shallow understanding of what they are “stanning” for. Just cringeworthy!!!

The “right” has gone through its own purges (Tea Party takeover?), it seems, just they are more… stoic about it, let’s say? Or it seems that way in that they have good PR/rallying together. The “left” does its own purity purges and while I question its productiveness all the time, maybe it gets results in the end??? One can only hope. (This is Te hoping Fi gets it shit together probably lol)

I have no sympathies for Trump. I hope the worst befalls him as he is willingly letting himself become a conduit and catalyst for mass incompetence and greed.


#12

I am hoping he just like experiences sudden exhaustion because he is like a steamroller at the moment (executive orders so broad and rash that legal aliens are banned how impulsive) but seems like he has always been that way so…I am hoping for impeachment now.


#13

Maybe the results are achieved via chaos.


#15

I feel that the roots of the problem are indeed metaphysical, and that we must first look at the global/US situation from a different perspective if we are to better understand the forces at play. In purely rational terms, the current regressiveness in many modern societies makes no sense at all, for surely enlightened human beings should know better than to treat other people as scapegoats, infidels, monsters or outcasts simply because we are afraid?


#16

This is where Astrology might provide some deeper insights, as it is at heart a description of Archetypal forces at play, both at an individual and collective level.

The recent New Moon in Aquarius seems to have triggered something in my own psyche, as the Sun/Moon alignment fell exactly where my Natal Jupiter lies, and Jupiter rules Sagittarius where many of my personal planets lie. At the same time, Saturn is itself in Sagittarius, directly opposing my natal Moon in Gemini. I have been experiencing a great deal of stress in recent years, related to overuse of my Thinking functions at work. In astrological terms, my poor, isolated Gemini Moon has had to take the strain of all the information overload we are bombarded with in our modern world. This isn’t a natural way for my innate temperament to live, and so I have paid a heavy price in terms of nervous exhaustion, overstimulation and a range of bodily allergies all of which I believe are related to cognitive overload.

So following that extraordinary New Moon arrangement, I had the intuition to investigate the Astrological symbolism of the Moon to look for some answers to both my personal situation and the wider global issues. So I’ve pulled all the relevant tomes from my extensive library of books, and been absorbing some incredibly profound wisdom on the dynamics of the Solar and Lunar factors in the human psyche.

The basic problem in the US, UK and elsewhere seems to lie with an overvaluation of rational ideology, symbolised by the Astrological Sun. All that pseudo-liberal PC-speak dictatorial nonsense clearly falls here, as it is utterly divorced from the day-to-day lives of ordinary people, with their struggles to meet even basic survival needs (symbolised by the Moon) not being appreciated by the Powers-that-be.


#17

When the Lunar needs of a society are not being met, including a sense of relationship to roots and family and nation, any society falls into anarchy and chaos, for overwhelming anxiety drives the collective into regressive and often destructive behaviour. Sometimes it unleashes the hunt for scapegoats; sometimes it paves the way for a tyrant-parent to take over and bring order back. Both are characteristic reactions to severe anxiety; and both reactions have lead to the current political situation in the US. Seen in this light, it is clear that Trump represents the Tyrant-parent and his first acts as President are to target the perceived scapegoats of Mexican and Islamic immigrants.

I’m terribly afraid because we’ve seen this appalling state of affairs occur many times before in human history, and if it is allowed to run out of control the consequences will be terrible.

It’s little wonder that INF types are feeling so uneasy across the globe; we are naturally attuned to the collective unconscious and often the first to detect a “disturbance in The Force”.

Sorry if this seems unduly negative, but I’m following a stream of consciousness here -this is what the Morning Pages constitute for someone with a Gemini Moon, I suppose, since it is very different from my usual Sagittarius optimism.


#18

So, @SeeTheElephant,

and others,

There were actually too many good thoughts in this thread for me to keep track of in my preferred (read: uncompromisingly irresponsible) way, which is, tearing through the thread at a million miles an hour to check all yer ideas off a list in my head before I dispel sum-total wisdom. But fuck, people did actually better thinking than I have done on a couple of these points and that has now cost me like 2.5 hours of going back and reading other stuff from said people, and being like, grateful for the forum.

But I will say one thing that I’ve spent more than the last 30 minutes thinking about. It’s been in my notes for a few days, since hearing on NPR this interview with a woman about the woman’s march, and about intersectionality, and the interview was one I found a bit disheartening, like mostly, I felt that sense of embarrassment for the very very very very young woman speaking with unmistakeable self-assuredness about the moral superiority of intersectionality as a political strategy compared to, say, any other political strategy. There was, as there is, conflation around politics and morality. There was reckless and unnecessary use of Chomsky’s Steamroller, which is that rhetorical tool of running people the fuck over by using words they immediately feel they should know the meaning of, like Chomsky’s Steamroller, which doesn’t exist, except maybe now it does if you felt it.

What I was writing about in my notes is the same stuff others here have been contemplating. I’m seeking a grand theory for explaining the American Political Scene.

And I’m an American, Utah Born, which is a place run since 1847 or so by family of mine, though not currently, and nobody knows my family or thinks “oh yeah you come from that family” because it’s the women all the way back who are the ones who occupy some actual space in the psyche – my mother (alive), her mother (recently dead), that one’s mother (died at like 100 right after I was born), that one’s mother, who I assume was a powerhouse because I can’t imagine a weak link in this chain, and finally, finally, a man, the first mayor of SLC Utah, which I think I’ve referenced before here, not sure. It’s substantive to the way I relate to ideas and places; I know it’s unimportant in many ways, by appearance, but I’ve mined that man’s journals and a couple biography’s on him with huge payoff, so I do care about the relationship.

And what I guess I would say is, well, let me quote myself. Haha. From an essay about pornography, a turn of the 20th Century Botanist, and the Halsey Nebraska National Forest, called Monstrous Wake, which is what the Cult Leader at the head of the mormon church said of this character, GGG grandpa, when sending him out on mission trips for 9 years. He predicted that he’d leave a Monstrous Wake. I know there is something important to me in that term, specifically around the way that my mom and her mom and up to this guy command a great deal of the physical and metaphysical into shape around them in a way that can’t be described as anything other than just fucking unconditional. Not unconditional like power over others, which shifts and slides from actor to actor. Unconditional like DGAF power, like, power that just IS. If any man gives them trouble, Joseph Smith said of this ancestor man and his partner, both about 19 years old at the time in like 1840, “Let them knock his teeth down his throat. I mean Spiritually.”

Are the diversions worth it? I don’t know. I am getting to a thing which is that I believe I have some claim on the question of the meaning of America, because I come from people who believe that Jesus is going to come back in Missouri. Sans tongue in cheek, because like, I was there as a kid looking over a vast space that used to be the Garden of Eden. Okay. So I’m the only person in this forum who can claim to have visited both the place where humankind STARTED and where mark twain did his thing on the same roadtrip, is the gist of my argument about my claim to have some heightened sense of what America as an idea is/could be.

there was a bottleneck that selected for souls simultaneously terrified of the wilderness and desparate for it, starting with the pilgrims, and a second bottleneck for the mormons. My grandfather character man lost both his only wife (at the time, before polygamy) and infant child on the hike over, as a 28 year old:

Starbucks is closing. Youll have to wait for what was gonna drop after that colon I guess. Drafts what?

Edit to continue

Tough to thread the needle on this, but where I wish I could land is to say, without even slight hyperbole, that until I was 18, I never once questioned that this country existed for the purpose of ushering in the second coming of Jesus Christ, and that this country existed to enable God to re-connect directly with his creations, that the founders were directly inspired in fact, that the founders of this country appeared to the early Mormon prophet, In a vision, to be like “you got this, man”

And also that I’ve realized in the time since I left the Mormon church that my understanding of it is, while a little closer to traditional / historical tradition within the religion, not necessarily the core experience / understanding of most of my still Mormon or ex Mormon friends, and that in fact while based in a massive amount of scripture and doctrinal study, my family’s version of Mormonism was probably rather unique (the argument doubles back on itself as i now note that this conflict between personal/family revelations of gods truth and political/church-wide/top-down authority is itself a mainstay of Mormonism, and probably every cult that sees its guru shot or crucified and looks around like “oh wait is he actually dead for real??” and the infighting begins as god tells some guy he’s next in line and tells another guy No He Is, and tells the third there is no line, and the fourth doesn’t believe in god and is a psychopath. Plus there’s the spiritually defunct kid nobody wants getting pulled out of some den of iniquity and having it whispered in his ear that daddy’s gone and it’s time to clean off and head home…)

Okay so, I think that I’ve experienced already the death of America as the promised land to a greater extent than most, having literally believed in it and then having had that belief murdered.

HARD EDIT for clarity here, deleted former last paragrph that was just too much shitty.

so over one decade post mormonism my movement in thought went like:

  • I’m lucky to have been born with universal truth and I’m gonna grow up to be the prophet if I can keep being this radically awesomely mormon and then later a god

  • I’m wrong, this whole thing isn’t actually true, and there is no god, but I’m still super special because I come from this weird cult that looks like a great microcosm of the American experience around belief and stuff, and my life is still somehow particularly crucial to the future of these people and I’ll like, write the great american novel or something

  • Eh, actually my own experience is probably as meaningless as the constant promptings I had as a kid to like “take a few steps to the left” because maybe that was god talking to me and warning me of a piano or anvil falling; yes surely this sense of my own important history to the future is totally meaningless and I in fact am merely experiencing the continual and uninteresting mental aftermath of being raised in a community where 99% of people believed something that is at odds with the entire rest of the world’s beliefs, the conflict between the public and the private truth, ie, I have symptoms of cult survival, seeking meaning where there isn’t one, seeking lessons learned where I should be seeking a healthy breakfast and picking up hobbies, stepping sideways to miss anvils

  • And only very recently, like the last year, toward this space I’m in now that reframes the relationship of Mormonism and Americanism a bit. This because I’ve been out of any Mormon community for 3 years and off facebook and all so like totally away from it with a spouse who doesn’t know anything about Mormonism. Here’s the way it’s shaped in my head:

    • The idea that is America is a cousin species to the idea that is Mormonism with some substantial commonalities caused by common forces and pressures that shaped them
      • This is in contrast to my views that assumed a sort of Parent-child relationship between USA and Mormonism, where the child has grown up either to have a better life based on the work the parent did (constitution, religious freedom, etc) to lay the groundwork, or, later, where the child has grown up to be a false prophet, like, a psychologist instead of a rabbi or whatever.
    • And if the idea of Mormonism is Cousin but not defunct child, I get to keep benefiting from my default view that my own upbringing had some greater purpose.

Well, Maybe. Maybe it’s important to me, and probably it’s not that important to the world, but maybe it’s the only way I can understand the world. And some evidence exists it’s a good frame for helping others understand themselves.


I am an American for shit sure. Is among the intended takeaways, I think. More accurately the claim is this: I am a quintessential American. I’m beginning to suspect this more and more as I experience a shift away from progressivism toward Conservatism as described by many of you here. I bet a supercomputer could read the first post in this thread, ask a couple follow up questions, and extrapolate a pretty close model of what america is.

Anyway
Let me end by not getting where I thought I might and instead listing some things that I think have consequence or relationship to the central issues here, in America 2017.

These aren’t necessarily correct or things I believe for sure, but they have been on my mind. usually prefaced with “Maybe” but I’ll skip the maybe.

Intersectionality isn’t a thing. It’s an internally illogical system with exactly zero percent of surviving at any scale.

Everyone is eventually going to get everything they thought they wanted and realize they still feel like shit. As long as anybody thinks anything outside their skin has anything to do with how they feel, they are acting on a delusion.

America’s White Male Workers understand this better than anybody, and they also know they can’t talk about it without getting skewered. They understand it because they know they have what is called White and Male Privilege, and they know they are still feeling as sorry for themselves as ever, and/or as hungry for power as ever.

It doesn’t matter if you’re in the .1%. The equation is still the same. Miserable people + power = miserable people with power.

If it’s actually true that the wealthy and powerful have it better, then it would seem to be also true that they will have it worse as they give up power in accordance with the call to Check Their Privilege, unless it happens to be true that in a world of total equality everything is better. This is close to provably false. Know why? Because I’d rather fucking die than live in a world of total equality. All you need is one of me. Sure, I can kill myself, but that still does invalidate the theory that it’s better for everyone. I know total equality isn’t possible, by I’d rather die than live in a world that’s within 100miles of totally equal. I don’t want to spend time in beautiful places doing fun things with great people. I want to execute a grand vision that requires other people put their own vision aside in favor of it. That’s it. Or I want to execute someone else vision and not have the crushing mental cost of knowing that the guy at the top is entirely mortal, weak, and fucking fucked at some unknown date in the future. Either position seems fine to me, but total equality would be the worst of all worlds.

Freedom is the thing that power can actually give. Doesn’t by default but can. Nothing else gives it. American’s don’t want fair. They want free. Which is by the way what Donal Trump is. Free as some wild animal really.

The frustration around lack of representation of certain groups in the Women’s March is in the image, for me, of Mormonism struggling to square a circle in which God tells the leader that everyone is entitled to personal revelation, and then persons get it personally revealed that they disagree with the leader on some stuff while the leader gets revelation saying that in this particular case, no, tow the party line. It’s the conflict between individual autonomy and sacrifice for the greater good; sacrifice for the greater good builds societies and religions, but is worse for the bottom and better for the top.
- The problem here is a baked in hypocrisy that throws Trump into relief. The baked in hypocrisy of the left is super unpalatable; more unpalatable to leftists than the paradoxes on the right are to conservatives. Conservatives might be closer to not defining themselves in terms of their current movement from low to high or high to low. Conservatives are still alive when not in motion. Liberals only exist in motion. stalling is death. Conservatives have the benefit of already knowing the world is kind of unchangeable, that suffering doesn’t demand an answer. I’m not talking about politicians, who likely don’t share the life experience of their constituents, nor self-described conservatives or liberals; I’m defining them in terms of these realizations around our powerlessness to preserve others from suffering, around the moral hazard inherent in action, the always-safer decision not to act, ethically speaking.

-Progressives are in for such pain and suffering that only a real psychopath could wish it upon them. But they must endure it. The pain and suffering is the recognition of their shitty selves in the mirror some years into a more equal future, when the bad guys are not as bad and they have celebrated some wins, and they recognize that the enemy is still within, that they aren’t made whole when they have objectively gotten what they want. I say this with zero Schadenfreude. The greatest suffering is in realizing that what they wanted was not equality but power. And they got some. And it wasn’t absolute that they wanted to their movement to be, but relative. Relative to others, which is the only way that power exists (it evaporates as a concept for the last human on earth). That power is power over, and that that is what they seek and now must choose to continue to seek or submit to. I don’t wish recognition of this on anybody but the universe is a pretty gnarly place. I also wouldn’t stop anybody from experiencing the realization. The future isn’t knowable. There is no responsible way to protect people from finding this stuff out.

We might be done a favor and get hit by an astroid before having to grapple with this as individuals. I haven’t had that luxury but in the end, it’s also simultaneously not so bad. It’s altogether fine and good. great some days. Good enough most every day.

God, I suck at this.


#19

The whole profile/pro-choice division seems to steer people into picking candidates they wouldn’t otherwise pick or causes tremendous barriers (like when the woman’s march wouldn’t let prolife feminists march with them, or it is assumed if you are profile you aren’t for the other services of planned parenthood etc etc…). Etc. This is so frustrating.


#20

I think that Newt Gingrich and the Moral Majority definitely confused an entire generation of future conservatives or trending conservatives like myself who probably won’t vote conservative in the near future about what conservatives are.

The abortion debate is tough. Man. It’s so easy from a kind of atheistic perspective for me to be so pro choice, but man oh man. The way medicince approaches child birth is a total clusterfuck. It’s nutzo. I shifted from being hypercritical of hippy dippy home birthers to being like, Wendell Berry for Birth over the last year, in terms of just thinking there is something important about empowering moms and dads too with the idea that they can do this thing. For the record, my wife lead this shift and we’ve both been super shocked to see ourselves take this journey toward being kind of anti-hospital on our thoughts about birth. Mostly I’ve realized how fucking hard parenting is and that there just isn’t any way to make it not painful. It’s not difficult for me to understand why people are anti-abortion, because it’s an extension of my views about childbirth now, which are like, “There is no way to prevent the suffering. and there is some meaning in it.” Pro-lifers are more radical with “There is no good that can come from messing with the natural order/god’s order, and there is some meaning in the outcome regardless.” It’s my lack of belief in god that prevents even consideration of such a stance, and despite the nuance I have on this stuff in my head, or maybe because, I sometimes wish I had gone to med school and could be an abortion provider or something, because I do think it’s just such an enormously complicated and meaningful part of modern life. That must sound crazy but I believe that it’s important and I just want to be doing meaningful things in life, and I think also I’m capable of taking on some stuff that is inescapably heavy and dark, and lightening other’s load a bit; I have a high pain tolerance or no sense of pain in other words.

But frankly, I don’t think most people who think they are pro-life are actually pro-life. Mormons for example are explicitly pro-choice as a religion. Literally without any ambiguity, they are pro-choice on abortion. And every mormon you ask will tell you they are pro-life. They don’t know, though, that there are actually 16% of the people in the country who say women shouldn’t have a right to choose in any case. Mormons be like, “Wait but oh no, women can have an abortion if raped, or if their life is in danger.” That’s pro-choice, which has nuance. Pro-life lacks nuance.

Some people will suffer so much when shit hits the fan and abortion rights get massively restricted, but in the end, they will never go away for long. elect republicans to house, senate, and white house, and you’ll realize that all the ideological rants were bullshit and views are much more nuanced; nobody has any idea what to do about insurance, and they don’t want to cause people to suffer the way some of their policies sound. I watched it happen with Reid and the democrats in 08 and I went fucking ballistic. All these namby pamby liberals getting skiddish after the American people chose all blue. I was on the phone yelling at senator’s aids in states I didn’t belong to who were holding out on the public option. But the truth is, when I knew trump was winning, I started hoping to see the sweep. Sweeping everything sets a party up for it’s most moderate face. Shit they pass actually happens. Well fuck. We better not shit all over the country fer realz, right?

Same thing would happen/will happen after supreme court overrules roe v wade or something crazy like that. After a bunch of individuals suffer (like immigrants right now, but WAY fucking louder, because even folks like me will be actually meaningfully protesting at the point that abortion rights are taken away), the rights will be reinstated.


#21

Conservatism in any generation may be just the parent of whatever liberalism looks like in any generation. And as any parent knows, the parent is unavoidably, unbearably, painfully right. So right they eventually stop wishing they could be wrong because they know how right they are. The best ones love their children and don’t act like kids are stupid for being kids. They envy them but don’t let on. They try hard to not patronize them. Sometimes the kids start getting manipulated by adults with ill intent and believing that the parents actually are evil and they should run away and do door to door magazine sales. Sometimes kids get elected and govern like totally reasonable but disappointingly Mature kids. Obama. Carter. That’s probably my final annoying thought for the night.

Edit to add

Sometimes parents get pissed and send you to live wiTh drunk uncle for four years.


#22

@Lunar Re: Te/Fi tension on the Left, I suspect it’s some kind of imbalance, some dire lack of Te (which Fi overthrew in the revolution) to keep Fi from radicalizing and turning on itself.

@SeetheElephant God, I wish that Everyday Feminism was actually satire. It is a very real example of the type of extremist social justice thinking that completely warps reality and wrings it of any common sense. Yes, now I can see that there is a lot of narcissism and insecurity at play in the frenzied “woke olympics” as @Prax so coined. But having spent a substantial amount of time in these circles…I have to say that all of this DOES originate from a place of genuine empathy for the vulnerable and disadvantaged. It is there, mixed in with the more selfish emotional pulls too, in a very human concoction I guess. It feels satisfying to bash on the annoying SJWs, but I don’t want to lose sight of that.

@Stewart, that’s an incredible astrological explanation! Unfortunately, living in the modern world leaves little option for INF-'s to not overuse their Thinking functions. I, too, have suffered health issues in the past couple of years, and have vowed that I will never again take a job that doesn’t permit an outlet for my creative impulses. For me, creative/artistic self expression IS a survival need.

The Solar/Lunar balance you have described is truly fascinating. “When the Lunar needs of a society are not being met, including a sense of relationship to roots and family and nation, any society falls into anarchy and chaos, for overwhelming anxiety drives the collective into regressive and often destructive behaviour.” --> That makes a lot of sense. How nations can meet these needs, in their increasingly multicultural societies, is probably the defining question of the century.