STELLAR MAZE DISCUSSION FORUM

What do INFJ women look like?

Ummm. I think I just saw the personification of an INFJ woman’s Fi-id.

Come on you INFJ women, I know you got this crazy redheaded bitch locked up inside all your ids!

Miss Tori Amos:


Is she E3 ENFJ rising? She really ENFJ-ifies the Fi-id, man.

She’s kind of a guilty pleasure. Like every time she starts grinding and getting into her howling histrionics, sometimes I’m like…“ugh…can you please take it down a notch, bitch?” :roll_eyes:

But, I don’t deny that she doesn’t have talent or profound affective power. O she do, man. She could be a genius in that respect.

The only album that really did it for me was From the Choirgirl Hotel. Around the same era as this vid. A lot of her lives around that time period were very good.

Katharine Gün

Very INFJ, what she did.

Before I respond to your post, I wanna know your opinion on mine.

I browse through your lovely list many, many times, and I’ve realized there were no E3 ENFJ rising women in the INFJ list. So we need some examples. The first person I could think of from that list was Tori Amos. She very obviously seems like it. Perhaps her Leo Sun has something to do it.

Regardless of whether or not you like her, what do you think?

Alas, I know nothing about her. I really like her in this video. If she wasn’t in the List, my fist impression would be ENFJ. The way she turns to the audience. Exploding outwards. Reminds me of Amanda Palmer (whom I know just passingly) in this regard. Although Amanda feels much more straightforward.

So, dunno what’s the rationale for INFJ, but ENFJ Rising definitely seems legit to me.

Compared with other INFJ women musicians I know - Beth Gibbons (Portishead), Chelsea Wolfe, Emma Ruth Rundle (all VERY introverted), Tori Amos surely stands out. She looks more like Fiona Apple, but that’s just from a quick glance as I don’t know nothing about Fiona neither. :smiley:

Hm, I should probably educate myself on these two. I should know all INFJ women in the List!

I returned to comment because the word I used keeps bothering me. Exploding. She’s not really exploding, is she?

This sounds much more accurate.


Now regarding Katharine Gün, she does have this “Naomi Watts / Helen Mirren” kind of ENFJ face. How deep is it? :thinking:

Sheeeeeeeeeeeit, I might be having another “Aubrey Plaza” moment here. :grin:

Gün is definitely INFJ in the movie but that might be Keira Knightley’s fault.

One thing is certain - you’ve posted the best live version of the “Blood Roses” there is.

Yeah, I have toyed with the idea of her being ENFJ. I know you took back your description of her exploding outwards, but actually I agree with this. I find other INFJ female musicians more subtle and to themselves. There is something very (deceptively) simple about their composition/musicianship. However, with Tori I see much more flash and embellishment. More engagement with the audience. Theatrics and histrionics and the such. And sometimes, she really is just too much, which is why she gets a bad rep. Nevertheless, it’s quite obvious that she is profoundly gifted.

Having said that, the themes of her songs all point to INFJ Fi-id. I just don’t think the average ENFJ woman can write shit like she did. I think E3 ENFJs tend to appeal more to universal emotions and sentiments… INFJs, on the other hand, can do the same but often offer something much more personal…which is what I see in Tori, who is a confessional singer-songwriter like Joni Mitchell, another INFJ woman. And bloody Jesus, the stuff Tori sings about are those wicked, feminine, INFJ Fi-id nightmares that no average man wants to even dream of. Basically, I see it as force-feeding men her period blood. :grin:

Here’s the first song of her first album, Crucify. That shit’s INFJ female stuff right there. No fucking doubt.

So yeah. Tori Amos’ live performances = E3 ENFJ. Tori Amos’ actual songwriting = INFJ. Therefore, INFJ sun with E3 ENFJ rising.

Oh yeah. Here’s an interesting fact. She was a rape victim. Blake said somewhere in one of the E3 ENFJ articles that he tended to notice a trend in E3 ENFJ women experiencing early sexualization/rape. Tori Amos definitely has this wicked E3 ENFJ, rapeable, sex-hungry vibe going on…However, she doesn’t fool me. To me, she looks like an Ni-dominant, especially in her early days (like the Crucify video). Pure, malleable, INFJ angel.

Another fact. She seems to have vanity problems. Recently, she’s got a lot of surgical modification done, way too much, which made me angry actually. I bet lots of E3 ENFJ rising, INFJ sun women possess beauty/sex-envy issues.

Oh you know…like…

Oh never mind. Doesn’t matter.

Rape and vanity issues. E3 ENFJ stuff, man. I guess it won’t stop INFJ women from having such problems either if they have an ENFJ subtype going on.

Yep. Her live stuff from that era (late 1990s) was unbelievable. I think those were her peak years. And she sounds good with a backing band.

Here’s another live from the same times. I was like, this shit is so crazy. It’s weird. It’s so not tasteful…but y do i lyk it so much mannn?

The Waitress

I’ve been thinking about Fiona as well. Those two are 90s confessional female singer-songwriters who defied classic views on what femininity is all about. Two Fi-id, angry evil-angel INFJ bitches. I’m not sure what rising type Fiona is. But I know what you mean when you say that they look similar. However, Fiona appears less ENFJish than Tori, although I’ve considered E3 ENFJ rising for her at some point. First of all, she looks like a witch at first glance. She’s also got a bit of that quirky vibe in person and in her music (like strange elements/embellishments, etc). Ha. And like Tori, she was a rape victim. Finally, she’s struggled with anorexia all her life, but I’m not sure if this has to do with vanity issues moreso than feeling ashamed of her sexuality after the rape incident. She claimed it’s the latter, but you never know with eating disordered people. Usually, it’s a mixture of multiple things, and sufferers are not likely to admit to all of them.

Agh, anyways. I dunno. To me, Fiona just seems like a good ol’ classic INFJ in all sense. Is it possible to be INFJ rising and INFJ sun? In any case, I like Fiona Apple. I like her Extraordinary Machine album best. It’s mature INFJ-Fe stuff. Quirky, witty, thoughtful, non-conforming. Her Fi-id rage phase (Tidal) was also good but less mature…You might like her, Ignas.

God, I love all xNFJ women. Women are the best. :revolving_hearts: :kiss:

Too bad I’m not lesbian.

Couldn’t that make her more like ENFJ moon?
Maybe moon type decides the things we gravitate towards… and finding a balance between the moon and sun is probably what helps us stick to something in the long term. I don’t think catering solely to a Rising impression is very sustainable, but I could be wrong.
Well, I’m just speculating. But, I find Rising type to be something to brush aside to see the real picture. And subjective as these things are, I find Tori pretty and sexy in a slow-INFJ way, not an immediate sort of way. And she seems to have been performing quite consistently.
Unlike Kate Bush, who is ENFJ with Leo Sun. I’d have thought that combination would make her very ambitious and voracious to perform live… but it didn’t. She stayed with music, of course, but after that one tour way back, she mostly just did studio albums (before returning to the stage some 3-4 years back). She also wasn’t that spontaneous on stage, though impactful. More like theatrical in a planned sort of way…Some Te moon?

I thought so too! Did you see the recent movie about her dilemma? (Official Secrets, starring Keira Knightley).

Ooh…ENFJ moon? Hmm…

I’ve always wondered what an ENFJ moon would look like. The moon is something that is not so easy to see until you really get to know that person behind closed doors. But ENFJ moon? Would it seem more apparent?

I have to go to bed now, but I’m not sure if Tori’s consistent performances have anything to do with an ENFJ subtype being in the moon position rather than rising. She is an INFJ after all, so being an ENFJ rising is likely going to boost what she already has (INFJ Fe gifts) way up, making it super theatrical and histrionic. I think with a combo like that, it’s be easy to sustain such power-packed performances consistently throughout the years. Stage is all about personality projection, and I suppose that is what the rising subtype is? She’s quite different in her early interviews though. Kind of shy, quirky, INFJ girl.

In terms of the sex appeal, I would speculate that an INFJ might never reach the in-your-face sexual vibes of a real ENFJ. Maybe occasionally, but never truly. Especially due to inferior Se. Less easy to pull off than hyperbolic Fe. However, I have to say that I disagree with you here. Personally, I do get wild sexual vibes from Tori, perhaps not properly embodied like a real ENFJ but the crazy, manic, witch whore sex energies are there, clouding up her core INFJ-angel self. So in other words, her ENFJ sex-hungry vibes are all just a mask, AKA the rising subtype. But yeah, I know that you don’t see this. Yay for subjectivity! I don’t know what others here think.

As for her moon, I thought that she could have some sort of NP moon subtype, giving her this quirky and innovative edge to her music. But maybe it is some other type. She did say that she can’t sight read but can strangely compose/play. That could be a clue.

Still. ENFJ moon sounds like an interesting possibility…We should put that on the table. But first of all, I don’t know what an ENFJ moon looks like or how easy it is to detect it. ENFJ rising vs moon in INFJ? O I dunno. I’m gonna have to sleep on that and come back to you in a few days…unless someone else wants to jump in. :smiley:

And I think Kate’s actual Aquarius moon could have something to do with what you’ve described…but I don’t know her MB moon subtype. INTJ moon? Her songwriting was all very ivory tower and maybe…just maybe…genuinely detached from her personal experiences.

I always thought the rising sign signifies the very first impression someone gives off. Like my rising sign is Virgo, so that’s the vibe I give off to people who have never seen nor spoken to me before that moment of seeing me. Then, as soon as I start expressing myself, the Virgo vibe gets cast aside leaving the sun to shine. That was always my impression of the rising sign. It’s not who a person is, it’s who they appear to be at very first glance. I could be wrong lol, but that’s what I always envisioned the rising sign to be. So I never really thought it to be too terribly important in the sense of who someone really is or even how they express themselves.

I think of the rising sign as like you’re holding up an expressionless photograph of yourself in front of your face until someone engages you, then you drop it down to engage back lol.

So yeah, I’m gonna have to go with @Spice on thissun.

Yes! That’s how I came to know the real Katharine. :relaxed:

Blood roses
Blood roses
:wilted_flower:

Omg, what a sexy lioness. :yum:

I like the fact that she started her musical career already a ripe woman.

Yeah, I’ll pretent I did not see that… :see_no_evil:

I did not find it distasteful.
It’s raw and true.
3:03 da best!

‘Cause you believe in peace? (Bitch) :smiley:

In all likelihood.

1 Like

I don’t disagree with most of what you said.

I’m not sure about rising type not having to do with how you express yourself. According to a few of Blake’s explanatory examples, it does very much have something to do with it. Like Kurt Cobain or Friedrich Nietzsche.

How one chooses to express himself is also a part of personality projection AKA a mask AKA the rising subtype.

I see ENFJness at the forefront in Tori. It is part of her persona.

And then there is the question of how rising subtype interacts with the main subtype. Like I said, ENFJ rising can account for a “fever-pitch” Fe expression in INFJs, to quote Blake with regards to Kurt Cobain being INFJ w/ E3 ENFJ rising.

Rising is the mask, the surface impression, but I don’t think we can discount its importance. It has something to do with persona.

I didn’t say I didn’t see it. But, I don’t think INFJ women are necessarily sweet and angelic though. The witchy, whory side can just be part of INFJ, isn’t it? I just meant that I don’t see her as visually hot in an instant sort of way. But whatever, “hot” can be subjective… because we all have some preferences, I guess.

I’m not too familiar with Tori’s music, but in the live version you’ve shared, manic isn’t a word I’d really use. She’s using her voice really well for sure, though! Manic explosion is like Bjork singing Pluto, Lol.
Plus, making simple music isn’t a criteria for being an INFJ. I think they can be innovative especially if they know and understand music theory (which is very possible due to Ni + Ti combo, MBTI isn’t the only place people use Ti!).
And there are classical era trained musicians who have made music that is quite embellished (like Mozart… Queen of the Night aria comes to mind, so theatrical!). And Tori got accepted into Peabody at age 5- such a person isn’t really going to make 3-chord music. St. Vincent is another one who makes interesting music. And I don’t mean merely the lyrics or writing. From what i’ve read in interviews, artists like Tori, St. Vincent care about the music itself, which means they’d focus on that too. I guess, women-driven creativity would bring its own aesthetic anyway.

[As a aside, do all INFJ women have force feeding period-blood fantasies, Lol]

Ah, Blake changed that to ENTJ rising, instead of moon? Hmm, I actually thought the moon fit . Plus Blake had this whole explanation that Nietzsche’s moon is rising (in his chart), which is what makes it more visible. Guess not.

O I think you’ve got some researching to do now! :smiley:

If you want to get to know Tori, you have to start with Little Earthquakes. I still prefer Choirgirl Hotel though.

As for Fiona, Tidal is the must listen. I can’t get through that shit without wanting to kill myself though.

Yes I do.

Already did. Going Under the Pink next. Gonna listen to all, don’t worry. Fiona as well.

I think it is, but only to some extent?
In astrology Rising provides context… so to that extent it may be important.
I’ve also read in some places, that Rising is a “cap” or “limit” of sorts…So if we extend that analogy, it makes sense that ENFJ Rising would not take away from the INFJ capacity to express, though I don’t think it necessarily adds to it. But they probably wouldn’t have issues of being blocked much,
I don’t think people necessarily stick to their Rising (or need to), unless it suits them though. It’d need a higher force of character to not get limited by it, maybe. And it’d probably be more inconvenient and surprising to other people who may be used to seeing them a certain way.

But, I dunno. This to me brings up the question of… is Rising type innate or crafted?
Innate part being facial features, race, ethnicity and other unchangeable factors. Not only is this innate, but how we “read” this is somewhat subjective.
We can craft and control the vibe we put out by various ways though- at least to some extent. But couldn’t that be our auxiliary rather than Rising? Why have a rising type then? I mean, I think it is a convenient way to describe and understand things, for sure. And if that is what it is, then great!
And if it is a matter of crafting, then it’s really a matter of knowing what we want to do and creating a persona to aid that.

Yeah, I think it is still not 100% clear what a rising type is and how it interacts with the sun type.

I have some clarifications with regards to your other post, but I have to focus now. Maybe later tonight or in a few days. I don’t disagree with most of what you said. I just wasn’t clear enough with some of what I said. :stuck_out_tongue: