Because as it said, I second guess everything. It felt like I was making it about me and out of nowhere because I have barely been posting, because I used myself as an example, which made sense when I wrote it. That was my initial thought, but then as I lay in bed it became… not stoic? But if you read it and were not asleep over on the other continent like I supposed, does it not make sense that I did?
I can’t remember exactly what I wrote here… but something about you being seen as ENFJ rising. And that below might look like me here but don’t know.
But then I proved it…
Below is an excerpt from my Capricorn rising [from Stars like You], which I don’t know how it translates to MBTI rising if it does.
"Despite your abilities, you are likely to be tough on yourself, with a tendency to worry. If you do not perform tasks to an imagined standard of perfection you can be very self-critical. Your tendency to worry may undermine your nervous system, and the uncertainty of too much change can take a heavy toll.
On the way to realising your potential you may need to overcome a crippling lack of self-confidence. Virgo rising is often associated with a tendency to self-censor and self-criticize that can be debilitating. You may inwardly question and criticize every move that you make, leading to extreme levels of anxiety, and even chronic illness, if the impact on your nervous system becomes too much."
Check out this 1992 video of Tori shopping for pianos.
This is like raw and pure ENFJ coming up from depths. She actually reminds me A LOT of Janis Joplin here. Janis might have been double ENFJ (Sun and Moon).
So emotive and expressive and manic. And it feels pressured, like it’s welling up from deep and she can’t contain it.
When she “fucks her piano” in live performances, that’s E3 ENFJ. Like, deep fucking horny passion.
ENFP rising would do little to prevent the expression of this, at least sometimes, however I think it colors it in the direction of
So, it comes out tinged with that filter. It wouldn’t if she was just an INFJ with ENFJ moon. Like, put some Se-preferring type rising and you can take the pixie dream out of the mix.
One thing for sure is that Tori has a lot of Fe going on in this video, like Fe with N to the max. Manic expression. She’s fun to watch and she’s deep too. And hot.
Did I miss something Ms. Period Blood Parade?
Also, I’ve typed @anhydrite from this forum as an INFJ with ENFJ moon. She presents as an IxTJ, yet she has a strip pole at her house. Need I say more?
And imagine how much ISTJ rising would limit the expression of an ENFJ moon.
However, I think John Lennon might have been E3 ENFJ moon with ISTJ rising (mean Mr. Mustard, heh).
Imagine how much ISTJ rising would interfere with the expression of INFJ and ENFJ, the two farthest types from it.
Lennon was a good example of someone that on the surface presented as…well let’s just say there is not one iota of the amazing creative and expressive genius he had within him (sun and moon) if you see his dry, and rather uncomely, demeanor in interviews.
Also, please note this has nothing to do with anhydrite’s comeliness. She’s comely as fuck to me. Just for the record. She can comely all over my face if she wants.
This combination sounds like it would create an abundance of depression and anxiety. Possibly leading to self-medicating to break some of the natural inhibitions this must create? I feel like that as well, like I have this shell coating that is incredibly hard to break through and truly unleash my potential.
Yea this is what I thought before based on what you’ve said. But then got confused assuming you’d changed Nietzsche’s rising/moon.
Hmm, “how you feel to yourself” isn’t resonating for me properly as a statement.
And when you say reacting to things, do you mean reacting to overwhelming/difficult situations (especially early on), or just the natural, early approach to life? Like the things we might have done and how we went about it? The type we think we were most like as a kid?
Do you tend to view the astro-chart element relationships as reflecting in ones Sun, Rising, Moon type?
For example, if someone has Sun square Moon in their chart, would you theorise that their Moon and Sun subtypes might also be experienced that way? (I’m talking about the experience of it- not arriving at what the type is based on this).
Hmm, If you’re equating this to yoni-worship, then I maybe No.
And actually, I just lazily used schlopadoo’s words, which is perhaps evoking pussy-eating, worship imagery to you. Don’t think schlop was going for that either based on what she clarified. I don’t really think Tori is either with Blood Roses, but maybe.
I think that the astro-chart influences the way we experience and dispense our temperament type(s).
OK, no yoni worship for you.
I see it as forced worship of the full scope of femininity, which includes the detritus issuing forth from a bleeding pussy. Thus, Under The Pink, which just as a title alone evokes that. Proof: I’ve never heard that album.
It’s one thing to worship a pussy and it’s another thing to be forced to worship it, which has whole other layers of psychology to it, basically having to do with POWER.
Add in that this pussy is bleeding into your mouth and this amounts to total female domination over a man. It seems also to fall into forced feminization too, such that the male not only worships (in this case by force whether he wants to or not) but that he also is forced into becoming female himself. Talk about rape. And vengeance.
Yeah, that strikes me as having some of the Fi id to it. It’s close somehow in psychology.
POWER. Whose got it? INFJs are very sensitive to this. And very unforgiving of weakness, whether this is copped to or not.
In the female of the species (INFJ species), I see them as needing to feel the male’s power in a way that is utterly convincing and…nuanced (read hard to please) so that they can plausibly and rather absolutely…submit.
Short of this, they gonna have a field day with ya. Or no day at all.
From a deep place they disdain weakness and silently suck men up into their pussy. I think this reaches the deepest pitch in the INFJ female. It’s amoral and even…evil. But it’s just the essence of the female nature. As Camille Paglia says “women are the proxy of Nature” and this might apply most of all to the INFJ female in the deepest sense of what she means by “Nature”.
All Nature at bottom is a will-to-power. A woman’s will-to-power is thru her pussy and all the associations and correspondences thereof.
Anyway, put some INFJ together with some ENFP, throw in some ENFJ. You got yourself some witches brew. Some Fi id, some Fi aux, some Se, all NF idealized feminine power come to a fever pitch.
The farthest extension of female power is to force a man to eat her period blood. Symbolically. How much more conquered could a man be? How much more power could she have?
Wasn’t that was Lilith Fair was about or was it just me?
And Tori was a blazing sexy period come to life. A throbbing, bloody, empowered, pussy.
I mean the way she played piano with her legs to the side and spread open was an invitation to eat her. That’s how I took it. Pussy power. Red, bloody, raw, bleeding pussy. Eat it!
Alright, I’m gonna go jerk off for a few hours. I hope all questions were answered semi-sufficiently.
Fucking nightmare of a week. I still have so many people to reply to, but not enough time or brainpower. Or sleep. Because I’ve been busy doing a lot of genetics…and…DISSECTING.
Speaking of which…
What an apt description. And my inner flesh-ripping soul likes it lots.
My heart is jumping.
lol, It really is like that, isn’t it? I need to up my subtyping game, yo. Shit’s cool, but it is pretty complex stuff.
LOL. Yeah, we’re entering into some serious Ni-territories here. I’ve been trying to “Ti” Blake’s shit for a few days now. I get it (or at least I think so), but I think it will take quite a few more explanatory examples for people to really catch onto distinguishing between rising and moon subtypes and matching Blake’s subtyping processes as best as possible. Because I feel like definitions alone will not suffice, and there is probably quite a bit of flexibility into subtyping process: there will be some examples that will comply with the canonical description of rising/sun/moon, and others that will require more case-by-case judgment.
Also, some familiarity with astrology will have to be involved. I am somewhat familiar, but I’ve always maintained a bit of distance from that field, because honestly I don’t really “believe” in astrology. I just don’t think it’s objectively true. I think it’s useful as a tool to get your Ni-juices flowing, but only if you know what you’re doing - which I don’t. And I ain’t got the time to really learn all about it. It’s probably better for me to use that time experiencing other things in life than to learn about a system that’s been fucked with myriads of vague and conflicting descriptions online. (Oh, the irony)
But now I think I will have to spend some time learning a little bit more about it, to really understand this subtyping shit.
The Tori Amos example was really cool, linked with the INFJ Fi id woman + period-blood force-feeding insights.
So I look forward to more examples. At least to me, I think that’s the only way to truly grasp the essence of rising, moon, sun subtypes, and hone our Ni-targeting. Distinguishing between three layers of type is a tricky task.
Ooh. So you’re ENTP moon? I think I might be able to see that.
Hmmm…Well, she seems to have some INFJ themes in her life. Like in the Answers to Anh thread, Erika (yep, back to Erika) practically said that she feels like INFJ to herself (although she didn’t explicitly say this). She’s a bit Scorpionic, and interestingly her natal chart reflects that.
And @TinyYellowTree, don’t be too hard on yourself. I think all of us have a tendency to link certain insights to ourselves. It’s kind of hard not to in a forum like this! I’m guilty of this all the fucking time. Anyways, I don’t think astrological rising sign correlates to our MB rising subtype, but you’re probably right that, at least, “surface-level” behaviour can be somewhat accounted for by our rising subtype. At least that’s how I’ve understood it based on everything Blake wrote here.
OK…anyways…by tomorrow I’m going to reply to everybody else in other threads.
I’ve started posting again in the Maze after a bit of a hiatus, as the needs and concerns of that strange fantasy-land known euphemistically as “Real Life” were paramount. I continued to study and practice Astrology during this intense period though, as I have come to rely on it more and more as an exquisitely refined and accurate method for measuring and adapting to changing external conditions.
The mere fact that astrological conditions relate to external conditions with such extraordinary precision (and not just internal psychological processes) have convinced me of its validity as a true, evidence based scientific discipline. I now hold the view that astrology can be applied as much more than just a useful thought experiment or symbolic means of accessing the intuitive functions.
I’ve started tracking the complex dance of the various planetary bodies on a daily basis and by doing so have been able to notice how a real-world dramatic event (such as the Notre Dame fire or the recent serious fire in a construction site here in Auckland, which blanketed the whole CBD in a thick pall of smoke for several days) is invariably mirrored by a specific planetary alignment that indicates the conditions which contributed to the event.
The planets don’t cause such events, of course. That would be like saying that a person’s MBTI type causes them to act in a predetermined fashion, as if they were nothing more than a robot obeying its programming.
Instead they operate rather like a weather forecast, indicating the prevailing environmental/social/psychological etc conditions at a specific time and location in space. What we choose to do under such conditions is entirely up to us, so free will is still largely maintained. But we also don’t act from free will as much as we like to believe!
I would even argue that ignorance of the prevailing zeitgeist actually reduces our capacity for free will, as it makes it seem like external conditions are completely outside our control and therefore leads us to react instinctively to those events which directly or indirectly impact upon our individual lives and concerns.
I hope I’ve been able to shed a little light on this underrated discipline, as one scientist to another!
Is it possible that I have an enfj moon? But I do have istj rising to deal with, in case I am not mistaken and this is my ascendant?
Indeed, I’ve always felt the need to refine my table manners, sharpen my utensil skills. like, forever. But unfortunately it never gets me satisfaction. It is not ME.
While I like to spend daydreaming about being a smooth and polished dressage rider, unconsciously, when I close my eyes I experience an erratic galloping on a black wild horse.
Ok. Cool. So being validated turns me on too.
Or at least I think that’s what you’re doing there. Ha.
I have to confess, when I first read your response it was through an email notification & I didn’t see the link (I can be surprisingly technologically challenged for my age). Just the numbers 6:38… Which, google tells me is also a reference to a verse in the Bible. (Don’t tell anyone I had to google this because I live in the american bible belt and they might burn me if they find out that was not obvious to me). According to Luke, “give, and it will be given to you” and so on. Which is also kinda fitting isn’t it. And maybe you meant that, too. Mmmmm. But really here it’s more… you gotta give, gotta get it out, whether you want to or not, but end up giving it to yourself, lipstick all smeared…
Either way, Tori definitely turned me on this morning. Damn it.
Thanks for the morning boner.
I was into horses a long time ago. I used to work on a farm and there was this riding trainer from England, Jack the jockey who never stopped critisize my riding in the ‘manège’. Ripped me a second arsehole, jockey Jack. Intense? Yes. Yummy? Hell, no.
And every time a horse appeared in my dreams it was black and wildly free. Dunno why
Sounds to me like jockey Jack should be made to swallow @schlopadoo’s cock. Or at least take my strap on from behind. Making you feel like that.
I have always gotten the feeling that most equestrian people have some pent-up erotic something going on though. It’d be interesting to know if that black, wild horse in your dreams does speak to some enfj or scorpio something in you somewhere. That “ME” you reference does sound a little like Blake’s description of the moon… the most felt position…. “raw and pure”.
you know what i take that entp moon label. it explains why i have such a hard time with my isfj mother in law. i’m never able to take all her actions at face value. i see all her actions as a game, because they’re always based on her needs. all the WEEKS long cooking/scrubbing/cleaning all of it has nothing to do what we want. it’s to help us but its simply because she needs to help us. entp moon i guess. because i HATE that shit. i can’t care about it just because we’re “supposed to”. it has scared me how cold it leaves me. but here is why…when i have tried to be grateful, then something has happened where she has layed a guilt trip on us. like she isn’t innately kind in the sense that she wants all her dues and we shouldn’t go out. like one time we left 1 hr she complained about it on the phone to someone. its not okay if the visit is weeks long which by the way is always entirely her call. she decides the dates she decides everything because anything else would send her to tears. it’s a fucking trap. entp moon? i feel eternally ungrateful around her. what’s at face value the actions of a saint, in my heart of hearts, for some reason i don’t receive that way. i must be a bitch.
Regardless of type, I don’t think any normal woman can truly feel strong ties to her mother-in-law, no matter how kind she is. First of all, she’s just not part of our blood, nor is she our partner/lover either. Plus, mother-in-laws want vengeance against all poor women who dare to steal their precious sons.
And ISFJ mother-in-laws are no different. They’re just more subtle in their revenge tactic - like making you feel guilty for not appreciating her enough or daring to suspect motives behind her “acts of kindness.” Fucking bullshit!
Anyways. Don’t worry. I’m an NT moon, too. We both have a bit of ice in our soul, but ain’t nothing wrong with it.
Besides your feelings and reactions to the above are all completely normal.
I think a more positive rationale for why you have an ENTP moon has something to do with your interest in mathematics and wide-eyed appreciation for so many different subjects.
I see lack of bias in what you choose to be interested in. In fact, almost everything seems to enthuse you, so long as there is a chance to learn or “figure out” something. That’s not something that is characteristic of all INFPs. It’s quite NTPish, and more specifically, ENTPish, considering just how voracious you are to consider, speculate, and discuss at any given opportunity (btw, this is a compliment).
In other words, if something tickles your brain, hypermania is triggered. Sounds like ENTP to me.
And again, you’re very NON-biased. Quite a few INFPs carry some sort of Fi prejudices with them. Not you.
And your higher leanings towards your Ne auxiliary has got to be powered by an NP moon. Not all INFPs can turn their Ne on for that long. Also, there is a flavour to your Ne auxiliary that’s particularly original and refreshing…very…“open” - very much akin to ENTP no-strings-attached Ne.