@Stewart Really? I actually wouldn’t be surprised if quite a few INFJs(and INTJs), especially, could have sociopath and psychopathic tendencies. A matter of fact they may make the BEST psychopaths because of FE-aux. They can literally turn on and look like a totally different person yet hold a vengeful hidden agenda(Ni+Fi) and no one would ever know. They can look stupid and compliant on the outside but be “mastermind” sociopathic geniuses on the inside. Quite scary actually…now that I really think about it.
Sensors cf Intuitors - what does intelligence and access to knowledge mean for each? (also many snipings and philosophical meanderings inside!!)
Sensors cf Intuitors - what does intelligence and access to knowledge mean for each? (also many snipings and philosophical meanderings inside!!)
have you watched the movie “Gone Girl”??
IT’S A MUST WATCH.
the woman i think is INTJ-ish INFJ.
she’s a complete psychopath with mastermind.
i can’t tell if she’s INTJ or INFJ but if you figured it out let me know.
edit to add:
and her husband i believe is ESTP
it’s the socionic duality. INFJ and ESTP
the best movie to portray those relationship at their WORST/BEST
A lot of what I was saying is purely hypothetical, based on what little research has been carried out relating specific brain areas to the type functions.
In reality, it’s unlikely that a brain injury or other trauma would take out an entire function, since the breadth and complexity of each function probably requires drawing upon multiple brain areas that are interconnected by well-developed neural pathways. More likely is that such an injury would be limited in scope (otherwise the person would display obvious signs of severe brain damage) and could maybe partially disable a function, for example Fi’s ability to introject and reproduce what others may be feeling internally.
This is different to the sort of “empathic” response I would associate with Fe, which relies upon the so-called mirror neurons in the front of the cerebral cortex to read and assess the subtle body language and behavioural cues of other people. This allows Fe to mirror and adjust one’s own body language, tone of voice etc, in order to gain rapport with others. It’s this type of Feeling behaviour that makes psychopaths so dangerous, since it can simulate genuine empathy without necessarily feeling any true emotions.
@supernokturnal I’ve been wanting to see that film for quite some time! Definitely sounds worth checking out. I’ll let you know what I think of the girl.
But as far as INFJ psychopathy examples, I would go to Marion Cotillard’s character in the Dark Knight Rises. Throughout the entire film, I would have never suspected her as the mastermind behind Bane’s destruction of Gotham city.
i saw that movie but I didn’t connect the two!
I’ll probably check it out again.
oh and don’t read the other post about gone girl because it’s too much spoilers!
but yeah tell me if you agree with my type assessment after you watch it!
@Stewart Wow…I’ve suspected this for a very long time - just not this well put. Yeah, I really think the “true” versions of emotional empathy are really more of an Fi thing than an Fe thing. I wonder if Fe is much more of an “ordering”+“mirroring” function rather than true feelings of empathy. At least that’s how I experience Fe, it’s very orderly and almost like “putting on a show” or a “front” that “works”, rather than expressing what I’m truly feeling or want to do. I’m playing a role - not really doing what comes natural. But I’m not well versed in neurology, so kinda in the dark on Fe, but it’s fascinating. I don’t usually give it much thought. I usually “just do it”.
to back up these two statements above, I’d say EXTP is closer to the prototype psychopath definition than Fe dom or Fe aux.
but speaking of specific psychopathic tendency or trait, I believe many types can carry on with it in one way or another.
Fe dom would definitely experience guilt and remorse if they did something morally wrong, way more than a EXTP would typically.
and Fe aux are usually very receptive to other people’s emotions and it can feel very heavy on them.
i think EXTP’s Fe is probably the best at using Fe without actually giving a fuck.
psychopath both mirror emotions (Fe) and not really feel anything towards it (lack of Fi)
some say INTP, ISTP or ENTJ and ESTJ is a psychopath
because of inferior Fe or Fi in their function stack.
but prototypical psychopath are good at doing Fe, so it doesn’t have to do with just “not understanding emotions”
one of the trait to describe psychopath is "irresponsibility"
and that’s a little far from ENTJ or ESTJ.
and another is “juvenile delinquency”, which is often seen by EXTP, typically.
and “glib and superficial charm” isn’t something INTP or ISTP does WELL.
if you understand psychopath as someone that’s capable of doing really fucked up things with lack of empathy.
then we can add INTP, ISTP, ENTJ, ESTJ, INTJ, ISTJ.
but if we just take manipulative “Fe charm”, then we can lean towards ENFJ, ESFJ, ISFJ, INFJ, and even ENFP and ESFP.
but when we use the psychopath definition as a whole, it’s EXTP.
and the study of psychopathy is very saturated and fairly new.
and from my observations psychopath is both hated and loved by the society and it seems like a lot of people want to be one. like… No joke. a lot of people like the idea of them being a psychopath.
only those that absolutely don’t care about being one is usually INFP and ISFP.
I believe that when done well this does cause empathic feelings – i.e. when you smile, you feel happier. And so I agree with Supernokturnal that the ExTP makes the best psychopath. Lack of Fi, plus tertiary Fe.
why “best”? hahahaha
this ain’t no competition!
i think THE definition of psychopath is EXTP
EXTP psychopath = murders in cold blood. doesn’t give a shit. then goes back and enjoys his/her day.
INXJ psychopath = gets an EXTP psychopath to commit a murder, clears all tracks leading up to him/her, enjoys imagining the suffering of the victim, gets the EXTP psychopath turned in, and enjoys their day like nothing ever happened.
Or even, back to Batman villians for analogies of psychopathy:
The Dark Knight’s Joker: Extp(most likely ENTP) - he represented and created violent ‘chaos’, no plans, no order.
The Dark Knight Rises’ Bane and Talia al Ghul: INTJ and INFJ - they planned everything out, Talia was mostly in the shadows until the very end. Bane was the strategist and executer, and Talia was the one with the master vision of total destruction.
nah. you wish. unless you pay a lot of money.
I don’t know if ExTP psychopath would commit a crime in someone else’s behalf. for free.
and they’re least likely to be someone’s drone.
ExTP will probably make someone else to do the work and claim that they did the job. especially if the reward is high.
gotta feed that Te id.
and probably give 10% of the profit to the actual criminal. or just kill the person who actually did the job, keep the money and act like they did favor to the social justice.
You’re right. Extp wouldn’t do it on someone else’s behalf. An infj would plant the seeds in the Extp’s head and guide the seeds to growth. When the crime is said and done the extp will be convinced that it was their own idea. But the infj’s Fi id wouldn’t let you get caught. If you did caught, the infj would feel really awful about it. Unless the infj’s perception of the upside greatly outweighs your demise. Like the Dark Knight example.
Speaking of The Dark Knight example: I know it’s just a movie, but could an infj really manipulate an Intj? #powerofthevag
EXTP psychopath goes to prison, makes lots of friends, becomes comedian, eats three meals a day and returns to childhood like years of collecting bugs, etc, fellow prisoners are like “that guy is a fucking psychopath he’s pouring alcohol on bugs and pinning them to balsa wood JUST LIKE I HEARD HE DID TO HUMANS” and entp (not EXTP anymore sorry) is like “did you know the giant Asian hornet kills 7 people a year? I fucking love libraries.”
ROFL! Y ENTPs rock like that! Lol. LOL…had me on the floor with the “pouring alchohol on bugs” part…hehe
OK, I feel I should chime in here. ENTJ? Hello? Anyone home?
ENFJ? Hello? Hello? Bueller?
Compared to ENxJ, ExTP has psychonothing on them.
And also, you might wanna throw ISTP in there. When they go rogue, you better watch the motherfuck out!
INFJ? Yeah, sure, but in a cuddly puppy dog way.
Like Hitler. Who had a motherfucking dog.
I guess it wasn’t Jewish.
Point being, check out Richard Kuklinski, The Iceman. That’s a motherfucking psychopath.
I got chills watching him be interviewed. Guy’s a total ENTJ. A coldblooded killer. Cannot feel.
I’d like to see a fucking ENTP has anything approaching his lack of conscience.
ENTPs are actually often very conscientious and law-abiding. They aren’t psychopaths (in the way that I think of them, at least). They’re more clowns, fools, and jesters when they go a little South.
Or they can be like that guy who pretended he was a doctor and then a lawyer and got away with it for a long time. They made the movie Catch Me if You Can about him.
But, that’s not a psychopath. More a fraudster, an operator, a liar, yes, and charming, I’m sure.
As far as I understand, one of the features of psychotic behavior is violence or a tendency towards violence.
Put it this way, if ExTP are psychopaths, they’re soft psychopaths, and ENTJ would be a hard psychopath. ENTJ is the psychopath’s psychopath.
INFJ would fall somewhere in the middle. INFJ is definitely a strange case on the psychopathy spectrum. Due to Fi id, they have massive and involuntary capacity for empathy, more so than any other type.
BUT, the Ni dominant orientation mixed with the nature of the id (let us say often wounded and rejected).
Put it this way. INFJs are often psychopaths because of a massive wounding of their feeling nature, not from a simple lack of ability to feel.
But, an INFJ can become so wounded that they reject their feeling nature. They reject empathy. And they become monsters. Or they become so filled with hatred and resentment (which are emotions), that they vow revenge. The case of Hamlet is interesting in this regard. Or Dostoevsky’s Underground Man character. Both these characters start out as preternaturally sensitive men.
And then tragedy strikes (tragedy comes from outside as a form of fate) and the INFJ is injured deeply in their feeling nature. They can then dedicate their entire existence to vengeance if the wounding is deep enough.
And ENTPs really don’t have either of these flavors at all. It’s more like a white psychopathy, or even, a harmless psychopathy. It doesn’t cut deep. And ENTPs are not violent, in any sense of the word. They actually tend to have an aversion to violence, unless it is violence in humor, as in cartoon violence. But, in a nutshell, it is not in malice.
There is no malice in an ENTP. Even is they cause harm and destruction it is without malice. Absence of malice as they say in legal terms.
ESTP? Eh. Vanilla psychopath. I can never see ESTP as anything deep and cutting in any sense. Yes, they are players. I’m sure they can be charming and calculating. But, I don’t see them being deeply malicious either. Not that this necessarily has to be a feature of psychopathy, I guess.
I think the definition of psychopath has drifted a little towards the vanilla in this Millennial age of ours.
From what I remember, someone like Richard Kuklinski would be a psychopath par excellence.
And I shit you not, after I watched this psychologist interview him, I could not sleep without the light on. This was just a couple of years ago. I hadn’t felt this way since I was a kid. I was genuinely terrified to know that there was a person like this walking the streets of New York back in the day.
This guy was talking calmly about what it was like to watch his victims be eaten alive by rats. Or drive up next to a guy in car and blow their head off with a shotgun. Or torture animals when he was a kid. Just nothing. No feeling. And not even really malicious actually. But, just a guy who couldn’t feel.
He talked about shooting a guy in his Adam’s apple to see how much longer it would take him to die than if he shot him in the chin (which is apparently where you shoot people if your a professional contract killer for the mob, in the chin. They die quick).
Now, that’s a psychopath to me.
ENTP? Don’t make me laugh.
Yeah, that’s a great description of what seriously fucked up INFJs are like. I’ve met a handful of damaged INFJs in the past and there’s a definite progression from a massive emotional breakdown after a trauma, followed by a cold dissociation once all the intense feelings have been discharged. The next step (if they continue to spiral downwards) is seeking revenge on their oppressors, which in extreme cases can be the whole of humanity!
A good word for a revenge-seeking INFJ is “Revenant” as it’s as if they’ve died and been resurrected as an undead spirit to terrorise the living.
This is how I see the woman in the movie Gone Girl, a damaged INFJ revenant, icy cold on the outside, but burning inside with white-hot rage and an intense hatred of the living. Rosamund Pike (who played Amy in the movie) seems to specialise in playing this type of damaged woman and was the perfect choice for the role. Her performance as Amy was masterful, every so often you catch a glimpse or two of the burning fury buried under all those layers of ice.
no, that’s just a crazy heartless muderer.
as a psychopath myself. let me get this straight for everyone.
my Psychopathy-id was triggered for me to come back and respond to this comment.
First and foremost.
Psychopath does NOT equal to cold-hearted murderer.
because i think that’s the idea you have about psychopath.
you said you don’t like the modern idea of psychopath right?
well. that’s the one you’re carrying,
bloody criminal = psychopath. that is wrong.
I can say i probably know about psychopath more than anyone here because, first, i am one. and second, i’ve studied it enough for me to grasp the whole concept of psychopathy.
so let’s start with what ALL psychologist agree about psychopath.
and WHY it ISN’T ENTJ. or ENXJ in general.
GLIB and SUPERFICIAL CHARM — The tendency to be smooth, engaging, charming, slick, and verbally facile. Psychopathic charm is not in the least shy, self-conscious, or afraid to say anything. A psychopath never gets tongue-tied. They have freed themselves from the social conventions about taking turns in talking, for example.
glib and superficial charm? ENTJ? i think not. where the HELL is charm in ENTJ?
ENFJ? of course they’re charming. but it’s NOT glib and superficial.
NEED FOR STIMULATION or PRONENESS TO BOREDOM — An excessive need for novel, thrilling, and exciting stimulation; taking chances and doing things that are risky. Psychopaths often have low self-discipline in carrying tasks through to completion because they get bored easily. They fail to work at the same job for any length of time, for example, or to finish tasks that they consider dull or routine.
now this COULD apply to any MB types.
but EXTPs are MOST likely to embody this trait ALL the time.
LACK OF REALISTIC, LONG-TERM GOALS — An inability or persistent failure to develop and execute long-term plans and goals; a nomadic existence, aimless, lacking direction in life.
which means. LACK of Ni. yes.
but this is probably more ESTP>ENTP.
one of the question-statement in psychopathy test is
“I do what I want, when I want, the moment the impulse strikes me, regardless of what others want.”
"“Live in the moment” is what I say; the future will take care of itself and learning from your past is pointless."
Live in the moment?? isn’t that the prototypical ESTP?
ENXJ? they have Ni-aux. it’s unlikely they’ll think this way naturally.
MANY SHORT-TERM MARITAL RELATIONSHIPS — A lack of commitment to a long-term relationship reflected in inconsistent, undependable, and unreliable commitments in life, including marital.
it’s definitely more likely that EXTP is this way, than ENXJ.
and that guy you mentioned, he was a ‘family man’. in one of his interview, he said he just wanted to go to quiet place and just think.
this guy is not a psychopath. he’s just a cold-blooded killer. that’s not the same thing as psychopath.
psychopath CAN be a cold-blooded killer. but not ALL cold-blooded killer is a psychopath.
IMPULSIVITY — The occurrence of behaviors that are unpremeditated and lack reflection or planning; inability to resist temptation, frustrations, and urges; a lack of deliberation without considering the consequences; foolhardy, rash, unpredictable, erratic, and reckless.
now this goes with Number Three.
again. lack of Ni here.
btw, i’ll even throw ENTP as someone who 'lives in the moment’
because there are quite a few ENTPs i know that doesn’t think about consequences of their action.
it seems as though they’re more living in the possibilities of the present than living in the future.
ENTPs are excellent at seeing possibilities, but they’re not future-oriented thinkers by nature. no. if that was the case, i’d have more respect for them.
they’re just scatter brained all the time.
btw. i’m not saying all EXTPs are psychopaths.
but they have the highest tendencies.
the video you posted explains psychopathy very well.
psychopath does NOT mean they’re crazy heartless criminal.
yes. no doubt Richard Kuklinski was a crazy scary murderer. no doubt. although i personally like this guy.
but he is no way a psychopath. he’s too dark and serious. a real psychopath is friendly.
you can find plenty of psychopath in business-world. maybe more than prison.
Late to the party, as always but after reading Blake’s post on Richard Kuklinski I had to check the guy out.
I’ve always had a bit of a morbid fascination with these types of characters yet I don’t believe these people are born monsters or the spawn of Satan or whatever else they get labelled as.
Yes, their actions are reprehensible and often horrific but if you can save them just a small degree of empathy and understanding there’s usually always a familiar story behind them.
You don’t have to watch this very far for that story to emerge…
It’s around 8 minutes in, when the interviewer asks something along the lines of;
“Do any of your murders haunt you?”
“No murders haunt me…nothing haunts me…I don’t think about it…In order for me to tell you about what, when, where, I’d have to think about it.
If I think about it…it would end up hurting me… so I don’t think about it.”
Not so much a psychopath incapable of feelings or empathy then. Going by that description what would it matter to think about such things. Sounds more like an individual who learned from somewhere that under no circumstance can he allow himself to feel whats inside of him because of the danger it poses to his own survival. In other words it’s the fact that he can feel his own feelings which has lead to such apparent disregard of his own and others.
Lo’ and behold we learn how he was relentlessly beaten as a child by his father and God fearing mother, who once hit him with a broom handle until it broke. His father then left when he was 10 years old so he had to fend for himself, regularly getting beaten up by local street gangs. One day, aged 16, he grabs a metal bar from a closet used to hang clothes on and learns that if he fights back, if he beats the shit outta the other kids, they’ll leave him well alone. It’s the first time he’s ever felt in control of his own life.
From then on the slope gets slipperier and slipperier…
“Who used to criticize you the most?”
“Of course, my father.”
Yeah I know its almost a cliche, daddy issues, but I’ve been involved in quite a lot of shadow work the past couple of years and It’s incredible how at the bottom of nearly everyone’s subconscious looms large the spectre of the father figure.
For men especially, what you tend to find is a lot is rage towards the mother who usually had to take upon the job of the father and became either too controlling or smothering. Yet, underneath that is born a huge insecurity of never feeling protected or championed by a mature father figure. That usually results in people pleasing nice guys.
However when both the father and mother have been violently abusive to the child from the outset, well then that fucks up a person pretty badly for life. Especially if the subconscious conditioning isn’t ever brought to light. It equals incredible amounts of repressed childhood (Id) rage that could never be expressed for fear of violent parental retribution combined with a complete lack of ‘mirrored’ emotional bonding.
@supernokturnal I found it interesting how many of the ‘psychopathic’ traits you listed could also have come straight off the diagnostic criteria for ADHD. They pretty much all fall in line with problems related to executive functioning.
The reason why it’s interesting is because I’ve recently been reading literature that connects early childhood adversary to problems of neurological development in the ADHD brain. The Prefrontal cortex and frontal lobe are the last parts of the brain to develop outside of the womb. When there’s too much stress in the external parental environment this development becomes hampered, the traits of impaired cognitive functioning that you’ve highlighted then become apparent in the child and later in life.
So this would go hand in hand with the notion that psychopaths or cold-blooded killers are individuals who have also endured developmental stress both emotional and mental but to the extreme, like in Richard Kuklinski’s case.
What that means is it’s naive to expect such individuals to be able to completely comply with the rules of society that are based in the complete opposite realms of ‘healthy’ behavior. Even telling them that they should know better with the threat of punitive justice is inherently flawed given it actually mirrors, even reinforces the belief that punishment and violence (execution) are the only means of effectively solving a problem.
Even if the individual expresses a desire to change it’s not only the contents of their unconscious that will prove an obstacle but also the very structure of their brains ‘arrested’ development. Seeing as most ‘normal’ people can’t even stick to their new years resolutions you begin to understand the almost insurmountable problem those with forceful unconscious factors face unless they receive help. There in lies the problem, few, if anyone wants help such people or acknowledge that help is equally, if not more so required alongside punishment to prevent such crimes happening in the future.
Check out the below video of how all of this can manifest in a child but how it’s also reversible through therapeutic intervention.
(btw this woman’s body language channel is totally fascinating)
I do agree @supernokturnal many noted psychopaths fall in line with how you’ve described them. From what I know these individuals would be regarded as ‘high functioning psychopaths’. They not only understand social graces but are able to perform them seamlessly whilst obscuring their ulterior motives. They also tend to be very intelligent and often do extremely well in the corporate world but can also climb to the top of the ladder in almost any domain, politics especially.
That’s when the lines begin to blur as to whether someone is partially a victim of their circumstances or are consciously choosing to continue because of the power it is affording them. I still believe it’s a mix, the stakes have just been raised.
Man I wrote a lot, must of been bored.